The Challenges Facing Millennial Men: From Meekness to Power with Marc Azoulay

Feeling trapped in routines or battling addiction? Discover how to turn these struggles into profound growth opportunities with our special guest, Mark Azule. Mark, a licensed professional and addictions counsellor, takes us on his inspiring journey from being a bullied kid in rural Maryland to the founder of Men's Therapy Online. With insights grounded in psychoanalysis, neuroscience, and Buddhism, Mark unveils how men can reclaim their lives, strengthen relationships, and engage authentically with their communities.

Modern masculinity is shifting, and it’s time to embrace its evolving definition. We redefine what it means to be a man today, advocating for sensitivity, nurturing, and emotional strength as core masculine traits. Using powerful examples from figures like Martin Luther King and Winston Churchill, we discuss how mastering various crafts and pursuing artisanal beauty are hallmarks of contemporary masculinity. The conversation also underscores the importance of honour, courage, and emotional resilience, challenging the conventional stoic male archetype.

Facing challenges head-on is essential for personal growth. From the responsibilities of marriage and parenthood to the trials of starting a business, we explore how embracing these roles can lead to profound self-discovery. Mark shares the significance of male-only spaces for fostering healthy masculine relationships and why activities among men are crucial for emotional growth. Finally, we highlight various resources available for men's mental health, aiming to empower our listeners to take charge of their destinies and evolve into their best selves. Join us on this transformative journey and make a meaningful impact in your life and community.

Key moments in this episode:
08:17 The Defining Moment: Transforming Challenges into Growth
13:27 Unconscious Barriers and the Journey to Modern Masculinity
18:06 Defining Modern Masculinity: Nurturing the Masculine and Feminine
22:00 The Challenges Faced by Millennial Men: From Meekness to Power
25:02 The Need for Positive Male Role Models in Redefining Masculinity
28:26 Taking on Commitments and Responsibilities: The Path to Fulfillment
31:06 The Role of Mentors in Personal Growth
34:37 Embracing Fear and Taking Action

How to reach Marc:
Website: http://www.menstherapy.online/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/menstherapyonline
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@menstherapyonline
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/marcmazoulay/
X: https://twitter.com/marcmazoulay 

Chapters

• 0:01 Breaking Free
• 11:50 The Definition of Modern Masculinity
• 16:06 Navigating Modern Masculinity and Emotion
• 25:30 Embracing Challenges for Personal Growth
• 32:03 Navigating Personal Suffering With Compassion
• 39:26 Building Healthy Masculine Relationships
• 49:14 Empowering Men's Mental Health Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Imagine waking up one day feeling trapped in the same old routine, you know, weighed down by invisible barriers that seem almost impossible to break through. You're struggling with addiction, battling inner demons or simply feeling disconnected with your purpose. These challenges can make you feel like you're living on autopilot, maybe even disconnected from the vibrant meaning of life, from the vibrant meaning of life. And yet there is a way for us not just to overcome these obstacles, but for us to transform them into stepping stones towards becoming revolutionary men. So in today's episode, we're going to delve into the profound journey of breaking free from unconscious barriers and discovering the true essence of modern masculinity, and our guest is going to guide us through some steps we need to do to reclaim our life, to restrengthen our relationships and engage our communities in a way that both are both powerful and authentic. So I can't wait to get into this conversation Now.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Before we get into today's episode, let's come to grips about one other thing, and that is inevitably. There will come a time in our lives when we will hit a wall. You know, whether it's a marriage that's not working, a career or business that's stagnated, or maybe you have a personal life that's completely flatlined. So if you're dealing with any of these, or a combination of them, and you're finally fed up with where your life is at. Allow me to help you get clear on what needs to get done and how to do that, so you can get on living the life you were meant to live. Just go to the AwakendMannet and download free Setting the Compass exercise. Get started today, and with that let's get on with today's episode.

Speaker 2: 1:35

The average man today is sleepwalking through life, many never reaching their true potential, let alone ever crossing the finish line to living a purposeful life. Yet the hunger still exists, albeit buried amidst his cluttered mind, misguided beliefs and values that no longer serve him. It's time to align yourself for greatness. It's time to become a revolutionary man. Stay strong, my brother.

Speaker 1: 2:04

Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast. I'm the founder of the Awakened man Movement. Stay strong, my brother, these obstacles and become the best version of yourself. Then I want you to consider your definition of what modern masculinity looks like. How do you show up in your life, your relationships, in your community? What changes can you make to align more closely with your true purpose? You know it's our unconscious barriers, or maybe even our blind spots, that happen every day to everyone. It is within these barriers that we are held back, and it's a bias. If left undetected and unmanaged, means, the likelihood of us achieving our destiny, or at least the one you dreamed of, remain just that a distant dream. So, as men, how do we define ourselves? Masculinity go hand in hand with our unconscious barriers, and so how we go about addressing this is what today's conversation is all about. So let me do allow me to introduce my guest.

Speaker 1: 3:13

Mark azule holds numerous licenses as a professional and addictions counselor, as well as being a certified group therapist. Mark is the founder of the men's therapy online, and that's a community and healing hub for men who want to get back on their feet or take their lives to that next level, and with the help of a team of licensed clinicians, he provides ongoing men's groups, individual counseling and powerful wilderness retreats for his members. He's got a background in psychoanalysis, neuroscience and Buddhism, so Mark can help men uncover and destroy these unconscious barriers that continually hold them back, and his mission is to help men become the best versions of themselves and truly show up for their lives. Mark, welcome to the show today, my friend. How are things? Thank you so much. That was an incredible intro.

Speaker 3: 4:01

That was epic. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to sign up for the Awakened man. Yeah Right on, incredible intro, that was epic. I'm like I'm ready to go, I'm ready to sign up for the awakened man.

Speaker 1: 4:07

That's, that's, yeah, right on. Thanks, my friend. You know I was, we were on, I were just talking before we got out of the show. That was on your episode, your podcast, a little while ago, maybe about a year ago, and you know we got a chance to finally connect and return the favor. So I'm look really looking forward to this conversation because I was so intrigued with, with your work, mark. But, as you know, here at the revolutionary man, we talk about everybody being on a hero's quest, and each of us will have encountered a defining moment in our lives that really changed the course of our destiny. So tell us about how that defining, defining moment in your life and how did you get through it, and how that experience shaped you into the man you are today and the work you're doing yeah, so there's a lot there.

Speaker 3: 4:48

I mean, I love the hero journey thing. I think that's what we talked about when you were in my show and, yeah, I guess I'll give the quick overview of my life and you can dig in where relevant is. So I started um my life and I was a nerd. I was like bulleted into the ground, so I love the hero stuff. I was like a dungeon dragons player, right, I was a nerd, I was like bullet into the ground, so I love the hero stuff. I was like a Dungeons and Dragons player, right, I was a nerdy kid, played video games, read fantasy books, like that was my jam.

Speaker 3: 5:10

Unfortunately, I was born in rural Maryland so I got trashed. I mean, that's like football and army country, you know. And I was like an overweight Jewish kid with glasses. I stood no chance. And in that experience right, jewish kid with glasses, I stood no chance. And in that experience, right.

Speaker 3: 5:26

One, I really disincent myself from men because I really wasn't accepted into the world of men, being that I wasn't into sports primarily. And two, you talked about unconscious barriers. I had this idea that I kind of made up when I was a kid, which is there's something wrong with me, right? A lot of kids feel that way and I would go to my parents and I would say hey, what's wrong with me? I'm getting bullied, I'm getting called names, I'm getting, like, pushed into lockers. What's wrong with me and my parents did what any good parent would do is they said nothing is wrong with you, we love you, there's nothing wrong, it's their fault. As a kid I could not reconcile this right, because I was like well, clearly something's wrong because I'm other people don't get treated this way. So the unconscious barrier that I built when I was you know, call it whatever six, seven years old, not only is something deeply wrong with me, everybody is lying, right, nobody will tell me what it is. So there's this like mysterious demon, this kind of thing that I can't quite grasp, that is always fucking with me, basically right, and everyone can see, but nobody will tell me what it is. And that unconscious barrier is what really screwed me up. So I ended up kind of like hating myself right, being really depressed again, really overweight, not interacting, isolating. You know, I was lucky that I was born as the internet was arriving, not when it was already here, but I could have easily, easily been like an incel or a red pill or some of these guys that are out there now that are just like isolating and, you know, stuck in the bubble, like I am the target audience. I was a target audience for that, um.

Speaker 3: 6:57

So then I went to college and I decided to reinvent myself in a way that I did a lot of young men do, which is drugs, rock and roll and sex. So I made this literally fake persona. You know what is kind of toxic masculinity, where I would just take any drug, I'll try to sleep as many women as possible, like worked out. I lost a good amount of weight, which that was positive from it, but like I didn't want to be seen as being weak or as saying no. So I ended up saying yes to a lot of stuff, right, including heroin, including a lot of cocaine, including, like drug dealing and committing crimes. I just like did not want to look like a coward and did not want to look weak in front of everybody.

Speaker 3: 7:33

So, to answer your question more directly, a defining moment is I actually overdosed.

Speaker 3: 7:39

So I overdosed on heroin, overdosed on opiates I was not an IV user, but I did smoke it and it led to an overdose all the same and luckily, I was dating the RA in my college and she had Narcan, so she Narcanned me, she saved my life.

Speaker 3: 7:53

Um, if I, if she was not there, I would be dead, full stop, right I was. I would have been doing it alone in my dorm room and nobody would have found me. But she was there, um, and that was a wake up call. That was a wake-up call not just to like, oh my God, shit got real, but a wake-up call that I've been lying to myself this whole time, in an effort to break that unconscious barrier of I don't know what's wrong with me, but something's wrong with me. I tried to make everything wrong with me, if that makes sense. I tried to be that bad boy, I tried to be that damaged goods, I tried to be that like dramatic, romantic, tortured artist guy, right, because I just wanted to be in control of that feeling that I had of things being wrong with me.

Speaker 1: 8:36

Geez, Mark, what an incredible story there. I hadn't realized some of the stuff in my research and you know what was really interesting. Intriguing to me is you know, as a father of two boys as well, you think you're doing your son's service as your father, as when your parents were saying you know, hey, there's nothing wrong with you for saying you know, hey, there's nothing wrong with you. And now, with your education and the men's work you're doing, how would you work with somebody who is going through a similar or has gone through a similar situation as a parent? Like what would we need to do differently to help our children, our men, our young men, evolve into better men?

Speaker 3: 9:20

Yeah. So I think this talks about the topic of the idea of masculine love and what masculine love is, and my definition is that masculine love is both being the challenger and the coach. So well, as a father, our role is to set challenges that are the right level of challenge I can't stress that enough right that aren't too hard. That crutches your kid. I think a lot of us had dads that challenges that were just frankly too hard and it destroyed our self-esteem, you know. But also not being patronizing and saying things that are too easy, that the kid accomplishes easy. A lot of millennials had that experience where we just like one all the time and then we thought that we were like the smartest people in the world because we never failed. So you got to get that like perfect level of challenge and that's an art and that's a skill and that's like what fatherhood is. But then also being the coach to help your kid get to that challenge Right. So being like here's the bar and I'm going to help you get there. So to answer the question right, when a kid says, hey, what's wrong with me? Instead of just shutting down the conversation by saying like there's nothing wrong with you, say like what do you think is wrong with you? You know getting curious what would you like to improve on in your life? Where do you think you're lacking? And, as your dad, I love you and we're going to get you there.

Speaker 3: 10:32

You know, if someone had asked me that, if my parent asked me that, I would say you know? I mean, I don't know if I would say it, but I hope I would say like I'm really overweight and I don't like how I look. Look, so my dad could have an opportunity of said, like you know what I hear that. And like how about we take some exercise classes together, you know? Or how about we cook together and work on diet together? Or how about you know we, like I don't know enroll you in a sport that works for you or whatever it is right? Like like something where it's connective and engaging, focusing on the real issues that I have, instead of telling me that my issues are not real, which I think a lot of guys get right. A lot of guys get this idea that like, yeah, your problems aren't real, and then we're just stuck alone because we obviously still feel like there's a problem where it doesn't make it go away.

Speaker 1: 11:16

No, absolutely not. And you know, and then what ends up by happening is that we start to lie to ourselves, right, and then we, and then it manifests, and it shows up in this, in in behaviors, that what today we would call as toxic behavior. Right, I'm not a, I'm not a believer in toxic masculinity. I believe there's toxic behaviors that exist and that can exist in any, in a wide spectrum, and so, because we're trying to cover for that, right, we're trying to. It's our coping mechanism and you know, ultimately, that's what, what you're doing. But you came through that other side, you know, and you were right and realize that things needed to change. And so, you know, let's talk a little bit. Your work, a lot of the work that you do, really is about helping men define what modern, what modern masculinity looks like. So what would be your definition of that?

Speaker 3: 12:00

Yeah, so, I think there's twofold, right. I think the one thing is kind of where the industry is and the next one is where I take it further. So I think where the industry is is getting in touch with your feminine side, which I think is really critical and really important, right? I think if you talk to a lot of therapists, they're going to say that men need to be more sensitive, men need to be more in touch with their feelings, men need to be more okay, nurturing and loving and being supportive, which is all true.

Speaker 3: 12:49

No-transcript craft can be, doesn't matter what it is. I know you have a background in cooking, right. I love cooking, right. Like the idea of like getting really good at something. Again, the thing doesn't matter. I think that's where modern majesty comes in. Like being good at traditionally female roles, like, I don't know, pottery or poetry, doesn't matter. It's about like being good and pursuing artisanal beauty in something I think is very masculine being a craftsman, you know.

Speaker 3: 13:14

I think living with honor, right, it's very masculine of like doing the right thing even when it sucks, you know, even when it hurts. I think building strength, right, and not just physical strength but emotional strength, right. Being the person who shows up during a funeral, being a person that calls your friend when you know that they're going through a tough time, you know, being the person that delivers food when somebody is sick right, that's real strength, especially in the modern era. It's more than emotional, social strength, less of the physical, you know, muscle man stuff. And the last one is courage, right, which is the idea of being scared and doing it anyway. Right, similar, which is different from bravery, which is not feeling scared. Courage is like I'm losing my shit right now, but I can still operate while I'm scared, you know, moving towards fear, seeing it as an invitation versus something to run away. So those four strength, courage, mastery and honor.

Speaker 3: 14:04

Jack Donovan talks about that in his book the Way of Men. I've built on it a little bit, I think, but those are what I think healthy, masculine and modern masculinity is. And we don't have that now. You look around and like who the fuck does that? Our role models suck right now. We don't. I mean in the States. Look at our candidates for president. I mean, what the hell that's the best men we can throw up there? There's a huge gap right now in men that really demonstrate a healthy form of being in their masculine.

Speaker 1: 14:34

I completely agree with that. I think that is the struggle that we have today. And as you were going through your four points, sarah, I was just thinking about a conversation I had this weekend with a young guy. He's done some work for us here in the house and we developed this friendship. He's old enough to be my son and he was telling me about how they have a little hobby farm and they saw we have this STARS program. It's a helicopter program that we use when people get injured and they can't get a regular ambulance into the location or they have to get flown in really quickly to one of our hospitals.

Speaker 1: 15:07

Anyways, what ended up happening is he followed the helicopter and when he got there he was just in time to see this. He knew it was the farming couple. The son was getting his father out of a round baler. And you were talking about strength. Know, you know strength. You know, not physical. He didn't need physical strength there, he needed emotional strength and that's what he was. That's what that's what our friend was talking about.

Speaker 1: 15:35

Like the guy was just, you know, could you imagine doing this? Senior father, only I, supposedly only his head was sticking out of this bale and you have to get him out of this machine, piece of machinery. Only I supposedly only his head was sticking out of this bale and you have to get him out of this machine, piece of machinery. And I just thought, man, the courage and the fortitude that had to show up in that moment, you know, it was just unbelievable, and so that was what I was thinking about. Then we need, you know, we need to have that ability, and the only way we get that ability is being is going through trial and tribulation and uhulation. And I know in your men's work you guys deal with lots of different things, and so we know what it looks like to be a modern man. Now We've got our four pillars and those are excellent, and so what are some of the most common issues you're finding in your men's work?

Speaker 3: 16:22

So I work with a lot of millennial generation and I think a lot of again, the masculine literature needs to catch up. So when you talk about a lot of the masculine books, they talk about deprogramming. Like the macho jerk, right, and that's like our dads, right. The guy that, like, isn't in touch with his emotion, the guy that drinks too much, the guy that's like, shut down and stoic, like a lot of millennials, like those are our dads. But what I see for my generation is the complete opposite, and there's a great saying in aa that is actually, you know, 180 degrees from sick is still sick, and the millennials are sick in this way. Is that like we went the complete opposite.

Speaker 3: 16:56

Where we became nice guys, we became people pleasers, you know, we became ashamed of our masculinity. We, we became afraid of our power. We became really shut down and confused and lost. I mean, I can't tell you how many people of my generation don't know what they care about. They're stuck in consumer mentality. They're just buying stuff or they're just, like I don't know, trying to save up for a house, but they don't know why, they don't know where they want to live and they're doing work that they're not connected to. There's a lot of lost guys out there and we're actually pretty meek as a generation, so a lot of this stuff around the macho jerk doesn't apply to us and a lot of guys bounce off of therapy for that very reason.

Speaker 3: 17:36

But what I see with guys out there now is actually needing to feel powerful but not feel oppressive, because we don't want to be predators. We don't want to be, we don't want to like, hurt the people in our lives, especially the women in our lives. I think we really care about the women in our lives but again we've overcorrected. So it's this idea of like, using male emotion to inspire and lead and I always direct guys to again a couple of generations back.

Speaker 3: 18:09

Like you know, people like Martin Luther King or Winston Churchill, where you watch and read some of their speeches, that are full of emotion. They're very emotional men, but it's a masculine emotion, emotion that motivates and moves and inspires a crowd to do something greater. That is such a powerful thing compared to what I think a lot of guys think is emotion, which is like crying alone in your room. It's like you can use emotion to motivate and lead and protect and inspire and I think when most guys see that they're like OK, I can see the value of emotion. Now you know like I want to be that general that you know, commands my army to do great things.

Speaker 1: 18:36

Yeah, and it's about having. That is really about you know harnessing that, that emotion and and really being and having an understanding of, of you know how to channel it. And I think, because we haven't been, we haven't really been taught that and I'm the you know, I'm the father of two millennials and you're absolutely right, you know what. What intrigues me or about my version and my idea of masculinity is slightly different for them and and unfortunately, they have fewer role models than we have, like I'm 58. So you know, our role models of what masculinity looked like was, you know, arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone, and you know and and this and lots of war, for you know, in growing up, that's what.

Speaker 1: 19:18

Those are the images that I remember. I don't remember, and those are the kinds of stories you would see it was. You know, remember, I don't remember, and those are the kinds of stories you would see it was. You know 80s action packed uh movies, and today, you know, there isn't anything. You know, like you said, look at who. We're not much better we're. I'm in canada. We don't have much better leadership to choose from either, and and I think it's because the good men just don't want to, just don't want to be bothered with this but I think that's the problem, right.

Speaker 3: 19:45

I mean I forget who said it, but that quote of like when good men do nothing, evil thrives, right, Like that's. I think that's happening. I think there are a ton of good men out there, but I think they're apathetic or they've disinvested from the systems. And then you have people that are able to take advantage, right, and move in and not inspire people you know and I love that you brought up the 80s action star, specifically Arnold Schwarzenegger, or I mean a little bit, I guess, after your time. But like the rock right Wayne, the rock Johnson, yeah, If you follow them now, those are actually two of my examples of like modern met, because in their older age a lot of their content is about honor and ethics and about family and about the importance of fatherhood.

Speaker 3: 20:23

Like they are actually continuing this tradition and it's cool because they're jacked out of their mind. So you respect them because they're huge, strong dudes, but they're actually both like quite eloquent and like super tender when you listen to them talk or give interviews, or even some of their posts on social media yeah, absolutely sure.

Speaker 1: 20:41

I, you know I'm. Yeah, the rock came for me is a little bit, a little bit down down the road. It would have been more, you know, hulk surfer for me. So I think of that in that era, but it was just, it was just the persona of you know what it meant to be masculine, right, it was this rugged, you know, stoic, stoic and stoic in the in the. I didn't really understand stoicism, like my father hardly spoke, but when he did spoke it was worth listening to and so you would classify him as being very stoic and not a lot of emotion. But I've learned, you know, in my path and I'm not sure if I'm going to bounce this off of you, but really being, you know, strong, healthy stoicism to me is what you were talking about earlier. It's about reining in that emotion, having just the right amount of emotion in the right time at the right moment with the right person. I don't know what you think about that.

Speaker 3: 21:35

I agree, right. I mean, there's a couple of metaphors that come to mind. One is usually with my guys a lot the metaphor of Zen archery versus Western archery. Right like western archery, it's about like, shoot the arrow as far as possible and punch through, like, as many layers of armor as possible. Right like you can go, you know 300 yards and get through plate mail, you're a great archer. Right? Whereas zen archery, they actually use hay targets. Right, and the idea is you need to notch the arrow in the target and if you go through the target, if, if you're too strong, you fail. So it's about controlling the force versus like I'm going to punch it as hard as possible. It's not about distance, it's about control.

Speaker 3: 22:13

And I think, like as men again being the apex predator of planet earth, right Like, I think we need to know that that, like, men have dominated the earth. There's no ifs ands or buts about that. Like we are aggressive, we are super aggressive, carnivorous creatures, but it's about how do we channel that force and channel that aggression and, just like you said, know like the right amount to apply so that we can knock that arrow where it needs to be, rather than just trying to punch through everything with, like you know, a rail gun or something. Right, and I think that's the challenge of men. And again, I think, the millennial generation we don't even want to pick up the bow because we're afraid of it. I think the boomer generation, and maybe some Gen Xers, which you are like they just want to shoot as far as possible Right, they're just like trying to maximize versus a more nuanced approach.

Speaker 1: 23:06

You hit the nail on the head, like for the longest part of my life and my career wasn't discussed in your show. You know it cost me lots because the focus was so sharp on this is what I need to get done, and almost at whatever the cost. Well, it was pretty big cost anyways, but today, as I've matured and so my next question for you, as you went through your transition, you know, during a university, and you had that, that defining how have you found your evolution since? You know, during university and you had that defining moment how have you found your evolution since you started doing men's work and how has that, this men's work, affected your life and how you've evolved?

Speaker 3: 23:35

Yeah, so I mean I swung all over the pendulum. So you know, coming out of that overdose experience, I went to Naropa University, which is a Buddhist university. It's one of two Buddhist universities in America. It was in Boulder, colorado, and I swung all the way to kind of like the meek, feminine side, right. So like again, to recap, like born shy, right Like very quiet, very shut down. Then went all the way to the like toxic, boisterous, sex, drugs, rock and roll. Then swung back again to like being this, like fake enlightened buddhist guy where like nothing would touch me, kind of like you said about that stoicism right, like I'm like fake stoicism, right the idea of like I'm cool, I'm good, I got the spiritual bypassing, like nothing can hurt me. But really that was also fragile. But I, like you know, I wore like mala beads and had, like you know, aladdin pants and stuff. And then I realized that I felt really empty doing that, because what I was doing I was disassociating, I was disconnecting from everything and even though I thought I was like above it all, by thinking that I was not touching the ground, I wasn't really in the world.

Speaker 3: 24:36

So it was by getting in touch with some of the more classical men literature, um, specifically a book called iron john by robert bly, which I'm sure probably been mentioned, or king warrior, magician lover, some, during the men's movement. That happened in the late 80s, early 90s. Those guys really spoke to me and they pointed me even further back in history. So I love that you mentioned Stoicism, like Meditations by Marcus Aurelius was a big one. I started actually reading the original Buddhist texts instead of just pretending that I did, and like some of those books were like really powerful too, you know, and a lot of like you know a legend of the five rings and the Bushido, and like really just trying to be like you know what are men into, right, like what are some of these ancient masculine traditions, and they, each of them, spoke to me in a different way, you know, and that kind of is on the trip I'm on now, which is the idea of like really reclaiming masculinity again, especially for my generation, which is more meek, and finding a healthy way and honor.

Speaker 3: 25:30

Really that traditional view of honor, I think is something that we need, of like making decisions that are not hedonistic, because I think my generation is very hedonistic, we're very pleasure seeking and we just seek comfort all the time, and I think that's what a boy does right. A boy wants to be comfortable and wants to have fun, but a man wants to make commitments and actually like be part of a community, and I think real belonging comes from taking on commitments and responsibilities versus trying to shirk all that. And I spent a lot of my life shirking all that. I was like oh too hard, too much of pain in the ass, too inconvenient. I don't want to do it, but like I ended up being super fucking lonely, you know. So I think it's about taking on those commitments and making promises and fulfilling them. That really leads to the fulfillment.

Speaker 1: 26:16

I couldn't agree more with you, mark. I was thinking of that. You know there's a, there's a phrase that I like that Michael Beckwith uses all the time. He talks about our growing edge. You know, and what he means by that is we're constantly evolving and expanding. But if we're not at our growing edge, then we're not really challenging ourselves.

Speaker 1: 26:36

And I think you know great, if you want to be, you know, a Buddhist monk or you know, do spend your life that way and that's your calling, you know absolutely 100%, go and do that. But if you really want to find out what you're made of, you know, get married, have kids, you know, start a business Everything that's going to go wrong is going to, is going to go wrong, and you find out real quick what you're made of. And I think, in you know, for me and my journey with doing men's work is, I've really found that that growing edge for me is getting, you know, gets pretty sharp at times and you reckon I don't know if you find that in your, in your journey, that you find out just how, how much more growth you need to do, cause really we're in here leading, leading men, but we're leading ourselves first. What do you think about that?

Speaker 3: 27:22

Yeah, I mean that's why I keep doing the work, because it's about me ultimately, right. I mean, like I get a lot out of it, I get inspired by my clients every day and it's like I don't have it all fucking figured out, like I'm still learning stuff. You know, for me, you know, back to the king war magician lover, like I think I have magician energy, I think I'm building king energy, but my warrior energy is weak as shit. So, like, what do I do? I signed up for CrossFit right, like again, because I had those body image issues growing up. You know I love food. I can. I can, like I need to focus on the areas that I'm weak at right Physical exercise, diet, nutrition. That's where my edge is right now is like I can do the philosophy and talk and be a smart dude all day long, but like if I'm ignoring my body, it doesn't matter. And again, I think a lot of men, a lot of millennials too, like we focus on our strengths and we avoid our weaknesses. I fell into that trap. So my edge right now is, like, you know, do the hard work of like going to the gym and getting my ass kicked every, you know, three times a week like that and I hate it. That's what it's all about. And to your point that and I hate it. That's what it's all about.

Speaker 3: 28:26

And to your point, like I think men grow through challenge. We grow through that sharpening process and as a modern man, we can live a really easy life. There's a lot of jobs that are like kind of bullshit and there's a lot of ways you could just like order everything on Amazon and be fine and live online and play games and again, like I could have been that guy. I was very close to being that guy, so no judgment. Like I could have been that guy, I was very close to being that guy, so no judgment. Like I get it. Without challenge we don't grow and we end up becoming weak over time. So, as the modern man, we have to pick challenges right For a lot of guys that's sports or, you know, wilderness expeditions or retreats or whatever right. But like we need to actively seek challenge and bring it into our lives because if we don't, we're going to be kind of soft. Frankly, we're going to be isolated and not ever have to grow.

Speaker 1: 29:07

Absolutely, and I think that's why what I really liked about those two books you mentioned Iron John and King Warrior, magician Lover is that they also talked a lot in there about ritual. And because you do these retreats as well, are you finding that when the retreats are happening, that transformation is more pronounced than doing other forms of mentor? Yes, retreats are the biggest thing.

Speaker 3: 29:31

So the way I have a whole other bit on, like you know how therapy fails men but you know, give you the cliff notes is therapy is just talking and men need experiences, right? I think most men are experiential learners and the way that we talk, especially in traditional masculine settings, is we brief and we debrief. So a lot of my sessions and a lot of my retreats is we brief. We talk about the retreat, what we're going to do. Usually it's kind of like a feat of strength or a wilderness expedition or a survival challenge. Then we do it and there's not a lot of talking when you're doing it, because you're just like trying not to die, you know, or you're trying to like push yourself, or there's like you're exhausted, right, like it's hard I mean it's hard on design, right. And then there's a debrief, which is the most important part, where you talk about the lessons you learned and parts of yourself that you saw, and maybe some moments and memories where you counted on your brothers to do something. You know, I think the retreats help solidify something. But what we do differently if I can do a little pitch, I guess is like we do a lot of integration work. So, after you do the retreat, we have a touchdown meeting the next week, then we have a follow-up meeting two weeks after, then we have a reunion three months later, which is the idea of like, okay, you did this thing in the retreat, but like, did you actually change your life? And we're, you know, did this thing in the retreat, but like, did you actually change your life? And we're, you know, we're confrontive, we're loving, but we're confrontive of like you know you spent, for instance, you spent all weekend talking about how you wanted to divorce your wife. Like, did you do it? Did you do it Right? You talked about how you wanted to change your job. Did you do it? You talked about how you were concerned about your kid. Did you make any change?

Speaker 3: 31:02

Because and this is maybe my bias of being from Boulder, colorado there's so much this retreat industry, which is like navel gazing, where you can have these really powerful experiences, but it still keeps people stuck, you know, like it becomes almost like a hobby, it becomes almost like a masturbation, frankly, of like having the big release, having the cathartic moment, but not actually changing it. And I loved what you said earlier If you really want to be a man, it's like get married, start a business. You know, try to like exercise, do like the basic stuff, because where the rubber meets the road, that's what really matters. You know, yeah, climbing the mountain and screaming at the moon like that's cool, that's fun, but that's just to be a kickstart to actually make change in your life.

Speaker 1: 31:46

Well, what I like about what we were talking about there in your program is that you have this compassionate accountability and I started using that phrase in our work to move away from because I had somebody challenging me at one of our groups is that they felt that we were judging when we were holding somebody to account. And it just came into my mind at the moment. I said well, it's a count. You're the one who said you were going to do this. You said you were going to do this by this date and yet it's not done. So what's preventing you from doing it? You know what's the limiting belief? What's the misaligned value? What is happening in your life? What are you afraid of that is preventing you from doing this work?

Speaker 1: 32:28

And for some guys they'll stay in that and they'll stay, and others they just don't want to deal with their stuff so they move on. And it's unfortunate when I see that happen with men and that used to really bother me in the early days. Bothered me in the early days, but after a while. I think I talked on your show that my oldest son has a hard time making healthy decisions around drugs and alcohol and he's always in a state of perpetual fear and abandonment, and so he just chooses poorly and I can't live my life through him anymore. And I decided that just a few years ago. And then, as I started doing men's work, I recognized similar patterns with some guys that you know, they, just they don't. They rather know they're more comfortable with the devil they know than the one they don't. What are you finding in your work?

Speaker 3: 33:20

I think that's true, you know. I mean, I think, especially with addiction, it needs to get bad and for some people needs to get really bad and that sucks when that's your kid. So a lot of empathy, you know, as a recovering addict, like it has to get better. Like I had to fucking die, almost die, you know, to like even see it. And like I had friends that were overdosing. I had friends that literally died. You know had close calls with the law because I was selling drugs. You know I was in jail, like I had all these messages and it took, like you know, lips turning blue, fucking waking up in the hospital to like actually make a change. Like that's how bad it has to get for some guys. And mine wasn't even that bad compared to what some other people go through, like homelessness and, you know, abusive relationships and things like that Right, but it's tough and I think guys need that wake up call. You know there's that dystoicism, right?

Speaker 3: 34:11

There's a great quote from meditations where Marcus Aurelius says you know the soil doesn't lie, and he talks about how men need this experience. He talked about gardening where, like you either win or you lose, and the soil will not lie to you right, like either you grow the tomato or you don't, and like there's no, you can't bullshit yourself and I think, again, an epidemic that a lot of men have, a lot of younger men have, is there's a lot of bullshit out there. There's a lot of people that are holding our hands. There's a lot of people that are lying to us, that are telling us that we did a good job and we really didn't, that are holding back feedback because they're afraid it's going to hurt our feelings. They're playing nice. So I love that you talk about that compassionate accountability, because I think men need that mirror. We're so hungry for it. And again, a mirror doesn't judge you, it's just a mirror. It's just saying like, hey, this is what I see. You do with it what you want, but this is what I see. And I think once, if a man can take that in, he will feel nourished in a way that he's never felt love, because he's really being seen. He's being seen warts and all. And it's again that thing I talked about before of like being the challenger and the coach. It's like, yeah, you made this commitment to me. You didn't make it, that's okay. Maybe that challenge was too hard. Either we adjust the challenge or I need to coach you better. How can I coach you better? Because I want you to get to, whatever this place is, you know, I think that ultimately, built respect between men is like having that, like again, masculine intimacy.

Speaker 3: 35:31

I think women connect in different ways, no-transcript. So, yeah, and some guys, again, the cocoon is thick. Some guys it hasn't quite gotten to them yet. It needs to get worse, and the best thing we can do, even though it's the most painful thing, especially as a parent, is to step away and let their life get worse, while maintaining like, hey, when you need me, I'm there. No questions asked, no judgment, I'm 100% in your corner. But you need to reach out, they need to initiate the help and it's, yeah, I completely agree, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:07

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that, and I think what you know, really, what we're talking about is how it's just different ways that we create our own suffering. Right, like to me, you know, the idea of suffering is a choice. Will we? Will we, when we feel pain, will we suffer, suffer absolutely, and we will in the moment, and maybe it'll last a little longer than a moment, but if we're still suffering over days, weeks, months, years, that's a choice. And, uh, and I don't have the the educational and training background you have, but that's my been, my personal philosophy and it's what's helped me get through some some of the darkest times in my life. And so I know you talk a little bit about this, about how people create their own suffering, and so how would you help somebody in that position break free from it?

Speaker 3: 36:51

So the first step is mindfulness. So I can talk from my personal experience is like I can wallop. I suffer from depression. You know I'm on medication I take. I take Welbutrin. But sometimes I can get in a real pity party and I can get in a place where I don't want to say anything, I don't express myself, I push everybody away, like that happens to me. I can, I can wallow.

Speaker 3: 37:11

So what I've decided and with the help of my therapist, you know, back to crossfit, which I mentioned before is to work on it every day in a micro way, and this is advice for maybe some of your listeners that suffer with this. So, for instance, crossfit right, if those not familiar, it fucking sucks. And you do these like really intense workouts but they only last like 15 minutes. Right, they're short, but it's training. Right, it's high intensity interval training, but it's really intense. And you know, I'm in a, you know, pretty progressive gym where, like you, can take breaks. Right, I mean, if you can't do it, you can take a break and you can catch your breath. And what I'm working on with my mindfulness practice is noticing the moment when I can re-engage in the workout.

Speaker 3: 37:51

Right, and sometimes like, like, so I need to take a break, right, I'm still working on my fitness. But there's sometimes where I go past that moment and I'm just fucking around, right, I'm like running out the clock, I'm looking around at people, I'm like psyching myself up, Like I've transitioned into that suffering thing that you're talking about, where it is a choice. Right, I needed to take a break, but I didn't have to extend it for that long. So for me, that's, my mental health challenge is like catching that moment and trying to re-engage as fast as possible, right, knowing when I'm making that change. So I think that can be.

Speaker 3: 38:25

I think the micro is really helpful for guys because it's like super tangible. But that can then be extrapolated into mental suffering of like stuff's going to hurt. It's okay to be hurt, it's okay to grieve. In fact, a modern man is okay with grief and welcomes grief and sees grief as a learning, like there's nothing wrong with it. It's a beautiful thing. But there is a moment where it becomes wallowing and I think most guys on some level know when they're in that place and it takes again that compassion and accountability. I really love that phrase. It takes that mirror either from a coach or a therapist or a men's leader or a men's mentor like yourself or a friend or if not yourself, to be like leader or men's mentor like yourself or a friend, or if not yourself, to be like I'm kind of wallowing right now, I'm kind of being lazy, I'm kind of using this as an excuse and you can decide. Like, what kind of man do you want to be? Right, like falling off the horse is okay, but you've got to get back on.

Speaker 3: 39:15

You got to get back on you can't live on the ground you know, absolutely, absolutely it's.

Speaker 1: 39:20

You know it's about getting up and and keeping the ball moving forward. These are great key components that we're talking about, and I think the other thing that we've been really dancing around the edges of. This one is that I want to bring to our conversation now is talking about the importance of relationship for men and having those healthy masculine relationships, and so let's talk a little bit of you know why that's important, why you need to engage deeply with this as men and how it can really grow our communities it's the most important thing, right.

Speaker 3: 39:54

So, like part of the mission that I have and I think it's part of your mission after I've seen some of your stuff is like recreating male space and really honoring male space. Because again, I think, like with the feminist movement, that I'm a big fan of, feminism is phenomenal, but I think it really demonized male space and it really shut it down. It made it be like, oh, it's the locker room, it's guys being gross, they're saying shitty things about women, or like being misogynistic. And look, that happens. I'm not going to pretend that that doesn't happen, that happens 100%. But it's not just that. It is also these moments that you've been talking about of like hey, man, I'm worried about you. Or hey, how do we fix this shit in your life, or like, hey, I noticed that you've been drinking a lot at work, like what's going on?

Speaker 3: 40:36

Like those moments in male space are really, really critical and it's not just like fucking about. And I think being in male exclusive space is critical because, like I said, we're apex predators. We have like extreme sex drives. Most of us, we have a hunter, killer mentality. We are violent creatures. We keep that to ourselves because we're not psychos. But like being with other guys lets us express some of those more primal parts of our nature in a place that's safe, that can hold it, you know, whether that's in ritual setting or through metaphor, through storytelling or even through, like video games, we get to run around and shoot people for fucking four hours, like, like, as men, we need those outlets for aggression and we need guys that can not just like, tolerate it, but bond through it, because then the intimacy can happen, you know.

Speaker 3: 41:23

So, again, it doesn't matter what you do, but do something right, like physical, video game connection, arts, crafts, spirituality, I don't care. But like, be with other guys and try to be open with them, because they get it in a way that, like the women in your life don't. And I think the modern man puts all of that onto his partner and we'll talk heterosexual just for simplicity. It puts it on his wife, right, they put on the female, try to understand the male experience and like the fact of the matter is is like they do not. They do not understand you. They can empathize, they can sometimes say the right thing. I think they're really helpful when a hundred percent I love my wife, but like they do not get it in the way that another guy gets it, and it's not a substitute, it's an addition. It's great to have a supportive woman in your life, but it's not a substitute for like a guy that like knows what it's like to be us.

Speaker 1: 42:12

Yeah, and, and at times, you know, I truly believe that it can be detrimental to that relationship if it's not done right, and right Meaning if, if you're the, if you're the type of guy who's who's never had a deep conversation with your wife, and now you decide you're doing a little bit of men's work, maybe you're getting some, some therapy or some works happening for yourself, and then you decide you're just going to spill all your guts with to with her brother. I don't think that's the right way to do that. Just, yeah, you, you know, get your crap together and then you know work on stuff that's less, the stakes aren't as high that you can, you know, work your way into a position to have something that's much more difficult, bigger challenge that has higher stakes involved, and so I think you know it's really important that we manage that relationship correctly. I think it can have a real profound impact on our marriages for sure, 100% right.

Speaker 3: 43:09

Like women want a man, they don't want a child, that's right. And I think, like just what you're saying, I see it happen so many times the guy gets excited, they start sharing, they start trauma dumping, they start like kind of like rumbling and the woman loses all attraction and respect for them. And it's like a sad truth, because I think women say they want our feelings but they don't want it in that way. They don't want us being pathetic Again. They want that, martin Luther King, they want that, you know, winston Churchill. They want that impassioned, feeling, centered man that can like leverage and use emotions and like has mastery and can ride the waves and can be there. But they don't want, like the sniveling.

Speaker 3: 43:46

You know, person, yes, and I think, like you know, it's a whole other conversation, but I think, like a lot of ancient traditional cultures, you would become a man in communities of men. You would leave your family, leave your mother, frankly, right, yeah, and like become a man with other men. I I really do think that only a man can make you a man, right, and then you can return to your woman, right, you can then return and be the man in their relationship. But the mother energy only takes you so far. It took you the first 14 years of your life, but it can't take you all the way there, that's right.

Speaker 1: 44:17

I completely agree. Yeah, I was just thinking about we. I agree, yeah, I was just thinking about we did. A couple of years ago we did, uh did a lesson series on GS Youngblood's book masculine in relationship, and what a profound shift is. Probably the most engaged group sessions. We had those three sessions that we did over over his book and it's actually.

Speaker 1: 44:38

It was actually exactly what you're talking about right there, mark, about really, you know, being in a leadership role, right, and understanding what it means to lead our you know, our spouses, our partners, and so you know, when we don't understand that and we haven't decoupled you know effectively from our mothers, then we'll struggle with that, and so I think a lot of us guys have gone through that. I think that's pretty common and maybe even more prevalent today with your generation, with millennials. Because we didn't want to say anything to upset our children. Everybody gets a prize for competing. There was no winners. We don't keep score anymore. We don't because we had to protect little Johnny's feelings so that you know he can grow up what we think is healthy and what we've really done is done a disservice to him, because the world's a cruel place. Little Johnny realized real fast when he leaves that life isn't fair. We have to teach our men today what it means life, what happens when life isn't fair, how we can rebound yeah, how to get better.

Speaker 3: 45:47

Right like in your story, like little johnny, because he was never told that he needed to get better. He never learned how to learn yeah right versus again.

Speaker 3: 45:54

Like the message I keep saying is like thing to say is not like hey, johnny, you're a loser because you're slow, but like hey, johnny, I know it's that you're in the back half of the pack. Like how can we get you to the front half right? Like teaching men that they that there is a hierarchy. You can't, you can't just like ignore that, but like you climb it, you can get better at stuff. You know, I think a lot of millennials, like we all thought that we were the best at everything and then you know we hit the real word oh, it's like oh shit, yeah, we actually suck at a lot of stuff. We suck at a lot of stuff. We suck at a lot of stuff, you know, cause you never learned how to learn.

Speaker 1: 46:25

Well, yeah, exactly A hundred percent. I'm sure, through your course of your, of your life, mark, you've had one or two mentors that have really impacted your life, and and so what's been the best piece of advice you've been given, and how is it still serving you today?

Speaker 3: 46:40

God there's. There's so many mentors I mean the ones that come to mind. My current mentor is a man named Rick Tivers who is my therapist and mentor and he's been my couples counselor and we co-facilitate retreats, we do all kinds of shit together. And then my very first therapist, dr Jeff Beyer, was big and he really showed me masculine love and showed me the idea of giving a shit and having these kind of fireside chats that like I never had, you know, growing up.

Speaker 3: 47:04

My dad's awesome, but he and he's very masculine, but he shows his love through acts of service, not through like emotional connection, and I always had this fantasy, probably from books and movies, of, like you know, sitting on the campfire and getting like the talk about like life and never quite got that. I got a lot of good stuff from him. Now I do love him a ton, um, but yeah, as far as like advice, I think you know we mentioned it before it's the idea of like real courage means being afraid. I think that's really what I would say and what really changed my life is like not seeing fear as something to avoid but something to embrace. And just because I feel afraid doesn't mean I shouldn't do something Right me to embrace. And just because I feel afraid doesn't mean I shouldn't do something Right?

Speaker 3: 47:46

Because, again, as someone who was bullied, as someone that lived in a lot of fear, or someone that has struggled with anxiety and depression in different times of my life, like my fear would shut me down because I thought that what was wrong, that is what was wrong with me. Right, I thought I was a coward. I thought like other people didn't feel afraid, I thought that everybody was super confident and like I just wasn't I'm, I'm still not. I mean I can project it, but like it's the idea of like being able to operate while afraid, I think is the big thing. You know, not letting it control you, I think is probably the biggest advice and lessons. I mean, there's so many retreat experiences and spiritual shit. I've done that like evokes fear on purpose so that you can then learn how to work with it, right? So like yeah, that's been helpful for me too is like not just the advice but the like lived experience of overcoming fear again and again.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Love that Absolutely. It's a that's outstanding, uh piece of advice, and so what a what a great way to wrap up our conversation here today, Mark. So I'll say thanks a lot, my friend, for being on the show and really showing us you know how we can be just much more productive in what it really looks like to be a modern man, and I think a modern man, you know, whatever era, whatever, however old, how, whatever our age is, however old we are, we can become modern men and really embrace the idea of what true, healthy masculinity looks like, and so men are interested in getting a hold of you and participating in your work. What's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker 3: 49:06

Yeah, best thing to go to the website, it's menstherapyonline. You know, we have the individual work, we have the groups, we have retreats. We also have a ton of free shit. So like, just like, look at that. We have like a podcast that you know Alan's been on. We have, you know, online courses, courses a couple of them are free. We have, like you know, all the social media stuff that's giving you motivation. Like you know, in my journey I had a lot of digital mentors and virtual mentors. You know influencers and authors. You know all throughout history that I was mentioning and like I'd be honored if I could be one seat at the table, one voice for you.

Speaker 1: 49:36

So like, obviously we want you to come to the stuff, we're taking the services, but like, just just check out the stuff, menstherapyonline um, maybe something speaks to you so, anyway, I'm going to make sure that on the in these show notes, as well as anywhere else that you are on social media, to make sure folks can get a chance to get a hold of you. Once again, mark, thank you so much for being on the show, brother really loved our conversation today.

Speaker 2: 50:08

thank you so, listening to the Revolutionary man podcast, are you ready to own your destiny, to become more the man you are destined to be? Join the brotherhood that is the Awakened man at theawakendmannet and start forging a new destiny today.