Uncovering the Hidden Struggles of Modern Masculinity with Josh Tomeoni

What does it mean to be a man in today's world? Between societal pressures, conflicting expectations, and the constant messaging about "toxic masculinity," many men find themselves walking an impossible tightrope – trying to be strong yet sensitive, confident yet humble, successful yet balanced.

Josh Tomeoni joins us to tackle these contradictions head-on with refreshing honesty and depth. As a coach, entrepreneur, and host of the Derelict Podcast, Josh creates spaces where men can be real about their struggles without shame. Drawing from his own spiritual awakenings and "midlife crises," he shares how discovering his purpose – helping men reclaim their authentic masculinity – transformed his life and relationships.

This conversation dives fearlessly into why so many men in their prime years (35-50) experience the highest suicide rates, and how disconnection from authentic self contributes to this crisis. Josh challenges the very concept of "toxic masculinity," arguing that toxicity has nothing to do with true masculinity – a perspective that liberates men to embrace their natural strengths without apology.

We explore practical wisdom for navigating divorce, making conscious choices about who influences your life, and approaching failure with curiosity rather than judgment. Josh's approach combines compassion with accountability, reminding us that failure is simply not accomplishing something – not being a failure as a person.

Whether you're struggling with relationship challenges, questioning your purpose, or simply tired of feeling like you're wearing a mask, this episode offers a roadmap to authentic masculinity and leadership. Ready to transform not just your life but the lives of those around you? Join us for a conversation that might just change everything.

Key moments in this episode:

04:52 Josh's Journey: Embracing Authentic Masculinity

07:58 The Crisis of Masculinity and Mental Health

11:54 Balancing Masculine and Feminine Energies

17:55 Living Authentically: Personal Responsibility and Growth

27:42 Understanding the Trap of Tanking Relationships

29:28 Reframing the Ex-Spouse Relationship

32:42 Navigating Post-Divorce Dating

35:47 Honesty and Privacy with Children

43:29 The Importance of Curiosity and Self-Compassion

48:54 Surrounding Yourself with Positive Influences

51:54 Connecting with Josh for Support

52:42 Conclusion and Call to Action

Chapters

• 0:00 The Challenge of Modern Masculinity
• 2:31 Living with Integrity Introduction
• 9:09 Josh Tomiani's Story and Awakening
• 18:07 Authentic Masculinity vs Toxic Behavior
• 27:58 Navigating Divorce and Post-Divorce Relationships
• 40:10 Embracing Failure and Self-Compassion
• 49:21 The Power of Your Circle of Influence

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

I just want you for one moment to imagine living in a world, or navigating yourself in a world, where you have your sense of self, masculinity and leadership are constantly being challenged by societal norms and pressures. As men, you're expected to excel in relationships, career, in our family life, but what happens when you're not given the tools or even the understanding to do so? How do we break through this noise and reclaim our identity and our authentic purpose? So too often for men, we find ourselves stuck in roles defined by others, disconnected from our own values and self-authenticity, and so the result of this is that it's a life that feels constrained, unfulfilled and far from the greatness that we're truly capable of achieving. And so, in today's episode, we're going to explore the deep and unfound, often unspoken, struggles men face in covering how to rediscover authentic masculinity, foster stronger relationships and embrace a leadership in every aspect of our life. This is going to be more than just about personal growth. It's about really stepping into our purpose that has the power to transform not only the life that we live, but the lives around us as well.

Speaker 1: 1:15

And before we get into today's topic, let's take a moment to talk about something else that could potentially change your life, because we all know how hard it is to stay true to ourselves and in a world that's constantly pulling us in different directions.

Speaker 1: 1:28

So the pressures for us is to provide, perform, persevere and leave us feeling disconnected, like we're drifting further from the men we want to be. So if you've ever felt stuck or frustrated and unsure of how to bridge the gap between the life you have, the life you want, then let let me introduce you to living with integrity. It's more than just a program. It's a roadmap of transformation. You're going to learn how to align your actions with your values, rebuild your meaningful connections and create a legacy that truly matters. So if you're ready to take control of your life with purpose, become the family man that your family is actually looking for in your community in the future. That really needs you to be. I'm going to challenge you to start today. Just go to the memberstheawakenedmannet and start your journey by taking the integrity challenge today, because the only thing standing between you and the life you're capable of is the decision to take the first step, and with that, let's get on with today's episode.

Speaker 2: 2:31

The average man today is sleepwalking through life, many never reaching their true potential, let alone ever crossing the finish line to living a purposeful life. Yet the hunger still exists, albeit buried amidst his cluttered mind, misguided beliefs and values that no longer serve him. It's time to align yourself for greatness. It's time to become a revolutionary man. Stay strong, my brother.

Speaker 1: 3:00

Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man podcast. My name is Alan DeMato, I'm the founder of the Awakened man movement, and so, before we get started, allow me to ask you a couple of questions. How can you understand and embrace authentic masculinity and transform not only your life but also your relationship and your leadership style, and what societal pressures might be holding you back from fully stepping into your identity as a man, and how can you overcome these? The journey to authentic masculinity and leadership begins with understanding yourself and challenging the societal norms that hold us back, and today we're going to explore how reclaiming your identity can lead to deeper relationships, greater confidence and more powerful purpose. So allow me to introduce my guest who's going to walk us through all of this today.

Speaker 1: 3:52

Josh Tomiani is a coach, entrepreneur and host of the Derelict Podcast, where he creates a space for men to be real about their struggles and failures. Over 18 years, he's built a successful financial planning companies and, while learning from the setbacks in marriage, business and parenting, and so much more, josh believes the failure is stepping is the stepping stone to success and shares his journey to help others navigate their own challenges. And he's also a father of free, passionate about adventure, travel, living with authenticity. And I always say if you really want to learn something about yourself, get married, have kids and start a business. And so, josh, you're doing all three of those. I'm looking forward to having you on the show. How are things, my friend?

Speaker 3: 4:36

Thank you, alan. That was quite the introduction. Quite a bunch to live up to. I'll try my best. I'm sure they're doing great. I my best. I'm sure they're doing great, I'm doing great.

Speaker 1: 4:50

We're just having a conversation, right before it started, about some of your upcoming travels and I love to travel as well, so I'm excited. Let's dive in. Yeah, absolutely. Here on the revolutionary man podcast, Josh, we always talk about everyone being on their own hero's journey. We call it a hero's quest, and so my first question to you and I've tweaked it a little bit is to tell us about your life and rebirth moment. What's that moment that really shaped your life and how did that experience shape you into the man you are today and the work that you're doing?

Speaker 3: 5:14

It's a good question. I've had several of those. I can't point to just one. I usually call them spiritual awakenings. I think that, no matter what you believe religious, spiritual, whatever there are these moments in our lives where we have this awakening and we realize whatever version of ourself needs to be shed Kind of like a lizard right, like we got to get rid of that exoskeleton and move on to whatever the next version of ourselves are. Or we could always choose not to do that and just live miserably and have that exoskeleton slowly suffer us to death. We could do that, I would say.

Speaker 3: 5:47

The most recent one that I've had was probably my third midlife crisis that I've had. I started young, but this one actually was when I was turning 40. And when I was turning 40, I asked myself a very simple question. I was 39 years old, obviously, and I said hey, josh, I had this conversation with myself, which sometimes I do. I said, josh, what is your mission? What is your purpose? What is your mission? What are you? Why are you here on this planet when you're 50? That was my question to myself, and I came up with a lot of answers. My, the majority of my answers were very in line with what you're doing on your podcast, which is part of the reason I decided to be a guest on here, and I really appreciate coach people, which I currently do.

Speaker 3: 6:37

But even bigger than that was to try to coach men into their authentic masculinity, specifically men that are in that midlife period that often get overlooked or often get told not to live in their masculinity by our world. They're often told hey, if you live in your masculinity, it's toxic, it's evil, it's chauvinistic, and instead what you should do is just get rid of all that nasty masculinity stuff and just be feminine, and there's nothing wrong. We all have femininity and masculinity. We're not talking about male, female here. Every single man, every single woman has both. The majority of men have majority masculine traits. The majority of women have majority feminine traits, so that's who I'm really speaking to right now. So to tell a man that has majority masculine traits that he needs to get rid of all of those and have feminine traits instead makes him inauthentic. The same way it would be saying that to a woman who has primarily feminine traits. So I realized that my purpose in life was to help men rediscover what that looks like in their life and to help coach them through that.

Speaker 3: 7:58

A very sobering statistic that I talk about a lot when I guest on podcasts is that I don't know if this is true in Canada I'm in the United States but I do know that in the United States, the highest rate of suicide among any group is 35 to 50 year old men. Why is that? It's the prime of our life. I think both of us are at least close to that bucket, if not in that bucket. Why is that? Why are so many men just deciding to end it all in the prime of their life, when they've really gotten their career underway? They probably have their family underway, they have an idea of who they are as a person and I think, frankly, it's not.

Speaker 3: 8:42

I'm not blaming this on society, but I think it's because men get to a point where they think I'm not enough or whatever it is that I thought I was. I can't be and I don't know how to be the authentic version of myself, and whatever this version is I don't like. Therefore, I just don't know if it's worth trying anymore, and it's really incredibly sad, and my whole mission and passion in life is to help be there for men when I didn't have someone there for me in my darkest of days, whether that meant a business failure, the divorce that I went through, you name it. I failed at everything, and all failure is like you said earlier. It just means that you didn't do what you're trying to do, if that's the definition.

Speaker 3: 9:30

I fail every single day, so let's not be scared of the word, but I want to be there for men that don't know where to go next, and they don't necessarily have to be suicidal. That's an extreme example, but just a man that wants to go to the next version of himself and there's just something holding him back. And, by the way, alan, I don't have this figured out. Like I still deal with this stuff too. I have limiting mindsets and beliefs every single day of my life. So I'm not saying I've figured it out. I've just helped enough men walk through it that I can see the signs, I can see the patterns and, frankly, I have coaches in my own life because I know that I need the same thing just like I try to help with other men.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Yeah, josh, all of what you just said just resonates so deeply with me and our work that we're doing here as well, because I think we have those death and rebirth experiences in our life, and it's because it helps us look at what's working and not working. And, to your point, we can either choose to do something about it or we can allow this exoskeleton to start to actually constrict us and choke us. And I think it's really important that there are more of us doing men's work and doing this, doing it in a way that resonates with us, because then we're being authentic. And I say the same thing to my guys if you're looking for a guru program, this is not the program for you.

Speaker 1: 10:52

I've figured out a couple of things, a few things that might be down the path a little further in different areas of life, and but we need to do this as a group.

Speaker 1: 10:59

As a group, we learned to be. We learned about healthy masculinity and what, who we are as men by being around other men. And so when you started to talk about that and your the stats about suicide, those are virtually identical in Canada as well something like four times as many men commit suicide as women do, and in the top five even at 60'm, 58, I'll be 59 here this year, it's the stats don't get any better for men. And so, as we get older, if we still haven't accomplished what we felt we wanted to in our 20s, and we're getting that close to that edge of retirement and there isn't something for us to go forward to or go on to next to, it's even a bigger problem. And so let's talk a little bit about this work that you're doing, and so grateful that you're doing it, but you also talk about, excuse me, not only is it is authentic masculinity, about living truly with what your values are, but how are you employing this in your life and now leading other men to do it?

Speaker 3: 12:11

Uh, yeah, sure, A lot of it is. Just I don't know how to answer that question. It's a very good question, I'm just not sure how to put it in a little package bow. To be honest with you, I think where it all starts is awareness, and I think, in general, as men and any men that are listening or watching, feel free to reach out to me and tell me that you disagree. That's fine. But I think in general as men, we have not only the societal expectation, but expectation from other men, expectation from people that we talk to, expectation from our family, friends, etc. That somehow we have to figure it out.

Speaker 3: 12:52

That we, as my grandpa, used to say, just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and try again. You fall off the horse, you get back on it, you fall down, you pick yourself back up, then it's oh. The answer is always just do it again. It's never become aware of what's happening, understand what's actually going on within you so that you can then become a better person. It's just go do it again, and that's not always the answer. The answer isn't always just go do something.

Speaker 3: 13:21

I know a lot of guys like to say this on social media because it's an easy social media clip Just do stuff, don't do anything else, just do stuff. Okay, that's fine to a degree, but that also is a key prescription of somebody who keeps just doing stuff and then drops dead at 42. And everyone's like what happened? The guy was healthy, he ran, he dieted, he did all these things. Now he's dead. That's because he just stuffed things in his life forever. He just kept doing stuff and then he's out. So I don't know, I don't like that prescription myself, but the other side of it, the answer we, I think, so often get in our society, is this kind of feminized version of a man that sits around, talks about his feelings all the time, cries, wears mascara, does all the things of oh, I'm just going to be this emotional mess. And that's not femininity either, by the way. This is just some weird version of femininity that society likes to bring along because, for whatever reason, it's dramatic and everything else that's not any better either. That's not the answer, it's. I talk about this sometimes.

Speaker 3: 14:34

I don't actually believe in the term toxic masculinity. Let me explain for a second why. I'm not saying there's not toxic individuals, there are toxic men. There's also toxic women. So let's not be sexist here. There's toxic everybody. There's people that act in a very toxic way.

Speaker 3: 14:53

I personally don't believe that anybody that's acting toxic is acting out of their true nature, because I believe people in their true nature are beautiful, wonderful created beings. But I do believe that people act in toxic ways for whatever reason. If a man is acting toxic, that's not their masculinity. Their masculinity is pure, it's authentic. Masculinity is a beautiful thing, just like femininity is. If somebody is acting out of their femininity or their true masculinity, they're not acting toxic.

Speaker 3: 15:26

So I think part of the problem with even calling it toxic masculinity is that you're relating masculinity. Say that five times, real fast. You're relating masculinity to toxicity, and those two should not be related. There is toxicity and there is masculinity. So if somebody is acting toxic, say they're acting toxic. I have no problem with that whatsoever. There are people that act toxic but it's not because of their masculinity, that's right. That act toxic but it's not because of their masculinity, that's right.

Speaker 3: 15:58

So the problem with calling it toxic masculinity is that the only answer for that is the opposite, which is femininity. Then you have a society that just adds femininity. Anytime masculinity is brought up, because masculinity itself then ends up being seen as toxic or evil, or chauvinistic or bad ends up being seen as toxic, or evil, or chauvinistic or bad. And now you have an overly feminized society where you're missing the masculine traits. And, by the way, the same thing can happen. If you have an overly masculine society and you're missing the feminine traits, that also doesn't work well. So I'm not saying one is better than the other. Here I'm saying they're beautiful in how they work well. So I'm not saying one is better than the other. Here I'm saying they're beautiful in how they work together.

Speaker 3: 16:38

Yes, it's true, and this is not also like a straight gay thing either. In every couple, every couple that lasts, every couple that actually works well, there is going to be somebody who's primarily masculine and somebody that's primarily feminine. There is going to be somebody who's primarily masculine and somebody that's primarily feminine. Correct, mark my words two primarily feminine people whether they're male or female doesn't matter don't work. Two primarily masculine men, or men or women just masculine people do not work. Yep, and what ends up happening? What I've seen a lot is that men are told don't be masculine, no-transcript each other for it, yes. And then they're bitter and they're resentful and it grows and grows till one day, all of a sudden, they get divorced and all their friends sit around and say they seem like such a great couple. What happened?

Speaker 1: 17:55

it's so true, and I think what you've brought dropped many things there and I just want to go back to.

Speaker 1: 17:59

You talked a lot about these expectations and I think that's really important for us to understand is that when we consider whether it's coming from societal, it's coming through a front, through other men, or it's coming from through family, that how we embody that says a lot about who we are, how we're identifying, and I think if there's important work for us to do as men is to recognize where that, where our identity, is coming from.

Speaker 1: 18:27

Not to say it to your point is not to say that it's bad because you're adopting it from other places. But but is it true for you, right? Is it really true? Because if it isn't, then it goes back to your other point, where you start raising I need to be today, I need to be more feminine and more nurturing more, more caring more, and so you start ramping that up and, while those are all excellent traits, if you're not being decisive which is more of a masculine trait, I'll suggest in in stepping into it and being involved in the in your relationships, then you're going to be tired man because you've got this mask that you're holding on and it's not who you are, and that's how we lose respect.

Speaker 1: 19:10

And that's exactly what happened in my first marriage and married my high school sweetheart, but in the end, what ended up happening is that we just I was just totally emasculated because I just thought I needed to be a nice guy, and so when you fall into that aspect, then she loses respect for you and you lose respect for yourself because you're not standing up, and I think that's so important.

Speaker 1: 19:32

The other piece I wanted to mention, just to touch on the toxic masculinity I heard somebody say the way they also described it was that hurt people, and so when you look at the behaviors, what's going on behind it for them now maybe it's a consistent behavior and they are toxic as an individual, but what got them to that point? Maybe there's a way for us to look at how we can show up as father figures or leaders, that to help them grow and move through that transition and through that and I'm sure you do that in your work, as we do here, and so lots of great points there. I hope guys that are listening or understanding what we're saying is that there's a need for both aspects of those energies in in in life, and how we dial them up or not really impacts the success of our relationships. Great points.

Speaker 3: 20:22

Agreed. Just to reiterate, not every man has primarily masculine energy, correct, some men have primarily feminine energy, it's just a lot less. That's probably 80% of men have primarily masculine energy. 80% of women have primarily feminine energy, so that still leaves 20% of men and women that are on the other side. So you have to understand what your primary energy is and how to live authentically in that energy, because if you're living authentically in that energy, a lot of problems disappear. Trust me they do, because I was the same way in my first marriage as well, alan, where I allowed myself to essentially become emasculated as well and become in a lot of that kind of it was more codependent and also some like feminine energy, because I just was trying to keep everything okay, yeah, and I didn't man up. And I don't mean man up like everybody means on social media, where it's oh, you got to hit the gym for four hours a day. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying living in my actual authentic masculine energy yes because here's the deal.

Speaker 3: 21:27

Here's a controversial take. That's true. Every feminist in the world that spouts feminism as loud as possible, I don't care if it's a man or a female every feminist in the entire world. What they actually want is more masculine energy in their life, more healthy masculine energy. Now they go about this by thinking that masculine energy is toxic. So they think the answer often is more feminine energy. Ask any of them if they're happy with the results. They're not. Why they're not happy with the results? Because they're not seeing that healthy masculine energy is actually an answer to the problem they have. What they're also not seeing is that oftentimes they bring on masculine energy that's not authentic to themselves. So then a man often matches that with feminine energy that's not authentically themselves. And we're back to the same point we just talked about. You have a woman who's primarily feminine energy acting masculine. You have a man who's primary masculine energy acting masculine. You have a man who's primary masculine energy acting feminine. It doesn't work. Here's a better analogy, maybe for people that are listening that are like I'm getting so stuck with this whole masculine feminine thing because we've said it a million times already on this podcast. Here's a better way of thinking about it.

Speaker 3: 22:49

Think about the time that you were a chameleon. Everybody's been a chameleon. You've gone somewhere and you thought that you needed to act in a certain way in order to fit in. Maybe it was a golf country club and you were poor and you realized, wow, maybe I need to dress a little better, I need to speak a little better, I need to not show the fact that I'm missing five teeth, whatever, it is right. You go to a symphony for the first time and you realize, oh man, maybe I need to dress up for this. Maybe this is a different environment than I'm used to. Maybe you're used to being dressed up and you go to a client who is an electrician. You show up in a three-piece suit and everybody looks at you sideways. Who is this fool? I don't want to listen to this guy. So it's not a better or worse.

Speaker 3: 23:35

It's just think about the time where you've been in this situation. Maybe it was with your spouse's friends and they're very different than you. They have very different political beliefs, or they have very different religious beliefs, or whatever it is, and you felt like you had to put on this suit, you had to put on this different skin. Tell me one time you had to do that and you felt completely free and open and authentic in yourself. It doesn't happen, right? No, because you can't. It's not authentically you. You can pretend all you want.

Speaker 3: 24:09

Ask any actor. I've been on stage, I've done some minor acting. I'm telling you, if you are acting a different role, you just you do your best to try to get in the state of whatever that person would be in, but at the end of the day, it's not you, and some of the most of the best actors and actresses that exist are the ones that play roles that fit well with themselves Doesn't mean that they don't change things about themselves, but the ones that they authentically can portray come across better. There's very few, I would say even actors that cannot do that. If you look at most actors and actresses, there's a similar theme with every role they play. It might not be the same role, but there's a similar theme with most of them, not all. Some are like just crazy and they can do anything and you're like I don't understand how you do all of these different roles, but most of them there's some sort of similar thing. It's the same thing as we are with humans.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 25:09

And there's another thing that you brought up earlier too, that I want to be really careful of as well. I'm not saying because society, your family, your friends, your connections, et cetera, encourage you to be a certain way. I'm not saying that allows us any of us as men to play the victim card.

Speaker 3: 25:27

No because playing the victim card never helps. No, it doesn't help me. It doesn't help the people that I'm playing it with, it just doesn't help. So I'm not saying it's anyone else's fault, but my own. When I was that emasculated male in my marriage, I would not blame that on my. That was not my wife's fault. I had the choice to do that. I didn't have to do that. That's on me.

Speaker 1: 25:49

I have to take responsibility for that no-transcript, something different about that, whatever that looks like. And then, who do I aspire to become? What do I want you talked about in your. When you're opening there at 40, thinking about what is my life going to look like at 50, and how many men today you would even think past this weekend, let alone 10 years.

Speaker 3: 26:43

And so when you start, that was me for most of my life.

Speaker 1: 26:46

Man, I get it yeah, and for in some parts of my life today it's still like that, and I think that's why our work this year with our group is really about. When I say living with, living in, with integrity in our own lives and different aspects, how are we showing up? Are we showing up truly authentic? What are my values and my beliefs around finances, relationships, my business, everything? How am I showing up? Because in some parts of our life, I bet you show up like super well, you're totally aligned, everything runs smooth. And then there's, in some parts of our life, I bet you you show up like super well, you're totally aligned, everything that runs smooth. And then there's probably other parts of your life that's not the case.

Speaker 1: 27:23

And so how we show up and be more consistent and be more authentic really takes us into having some self-introspection, and you wrote a book on this stuff. You talked to their books the five traps that men face when we go in divorce and that really, when we go through divorce, it forces us to look at and take responsibility for things, and so many of us have been through that really brutal ordeal. And so in your book you talk about one of the traps that we fall into is tanking. So tell me what your idea about this tanking is and how it is that this trap is burning men alive.

Speaker 3: 27:58

Sure, yeah. The fifth trap is tanking relationships post-divorce, and I specifically speak of two different categories of relationships. The number one relationship I discuss is the one with your spouse or your ex, soon to be ex spouse, and there's a couple of different ways of taking that relationship and it's like a spectrum. So, on this side is be a dick at all times and just play the victim and think that everything is their fault and spew vomit about them, not only to them, but to everyone that you know, to your children, so on and so forth. You You've met that person, maybe you've been that person, I don't know, maybe we all have.

Speaker 3: 28:41

So there's that side of things and on this side of things it's really critical. It's like being careful. What you're watching for your mind, right? If I watch the same horrific stuff all the time in my mind, it's going to be implanted in my mind. It just is so you can do whatever you want. You're an adult, I don't care Everybody watching this. Do whatever you want, but if you consistently watch the same thing, that's where you're going to get programmed with. It's like politics. If you consistently watch the same channel, that's saying the same thing about the same party, about the same thing. You're going to believe it, and then you're going to believe it, and then you're going to think it's your thought when it's reality, it's just the propaganda you've been fed into your mind and you're believing the propaganda.

Speaker 3: 29:25

Yeah, I don't care what side it is, it's the same thing over here. Even calling my ex-spouse my ex-spouse does something negative in my brain, because what that does is it makes me think of this person as a failed relationship that somehow screwed me over. So one of the things I learned very early on going through my divorce process is that I try never to call her my ex spouse and I may have already done it in this podcast, because I mess up sometimes. What I try to call her, every single time I'm referencing who this person is my kid's mom.

Speaker 1: 30:05

Ah nice.

Speaker 3: 30:05

Cause that's always positive. Yeah, because when I say my kid's mom, like it's impossible for me not to get a little smile because I love my kids and I want what's best for them. So if I can think of her in that context, it's much better than that bitch who took half my shit and more of my stuff and everything, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and ruined my life. Like it's just even the titling of it, like I remember what I even had to do on this side was that there were several people in my life that were a team Josh, that were all for me during my divorce and everything else, that I had to ask to stop speaking negatively about her, because they would do it to try to I don't know be on the same page as me or something else. I think they had the best intentions, but after a while I'm like, look, I need as positive thoughts as possible about this person.

Speaker 1: 30:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 30:54

This person is my children's mother. I want what's best for her. I want what's best for her and I want her to have the best relationship with my kids as she possibly can Now. Does that mean if there's toxicity in there you don't need to set boundaries? And of course there's all that stuff, but I still want the best possible feelings about her.

Speaker 3: 31:15

The other side of that spectrum that was long-winded, the other side of that spectrum that was long winded, the other side of that spectrum is too cozy with that person and that is the person that goes back and I don't know, maybe get a little intimate, maybe have some sex, maybe kind of play around with staying in the relationship. And not only does that hurt you, what it really hurts is the kids. What I see oftentimes when somebody goes through a divorce is they're like really trying to speak as good as possible for this person and keep a really good friendship and everything else. And if you're not clear with your kids that you're done, that you are never getting back together, their little minds, especially if they're young, will constantly think oh man, mommy and daddy are going to get back together.

Speaker 3: 31:58

Their little minds, especially if they're young, will constantly think oh man, mommy and daddy are going to get back together. That is super unhealthy. Even if you do get back together one day great, let it happen. But don't speak that way to your kids ever. Be very clear we are done, we are divorced, we are never getting back together and that's okay. We both love you. There's different households, there's a lot of different things you can say, but do not keep that kids open. That's so unhealthy and I've seen a lot of people do that.

Speaker 3: 32:31

So, going back to taking relationships post-divorce, two biggest ones the ex-relationship or the kid's mom relationship or whatever, and I just talked about the two sides of that. The second one, which is the biggest one Now there's a whole lot of others Like if I picked a number three, there'd be family and friends and community. All that sort of stuff changes. But the second, really big one is dating. And I'll tell you what.

Speaker 3: 32:55

When I interviewed people for my book, I interviewed several people, asked them what they thought the biggest traps in their divorce were. It was ironic because we all had the same answer for all five of them. It was shocking. After I interviewed dozens of people, but the number one thing that I heard from the most people was I started dating too soon, and I heard that from somebody who started dating the next day. I heard that from somebody that started dating years later. It was the same answer.

Speaker 3: 33:25

The timeframe didn't matter. It was that they started dating in a state where they were not complete themselves, they were not living their authentic identity, they were not healthy themselves. Now that doesn't mean you have to be a hundred percent healthy. None of us are. If I waited for that, I'd never date, ever again. But what it does mean is that I need to be healthy enough to where I can be a healthy individual meeting another healthy individual. And for the most part, people start dating because they get lonely and because they feel bad and because they want somebody to fill some sort of hole that they're not going to fill. We all do it, I did it.

Speaker 1: 34:03

Yeah, absolutely. I was sitting there thinking about which guy was I in or in these relationships? Right, and taking it, I'm definitely was that that guy? That, while I didn't speak harshly about my kid's mom, she was definitely an ex, and so it's a great nuance and reframe about considering about how important while I may not agree and obviously our relationship didn't work out that we could be together. They're still my boy's mom and they still look up to her and they still see her as their mom, which is fantastic, because there are those kids that, because of for whatever reason that they totally disassociate with one of the one of the parents that I'm happy to see that relationship is still strong with them.

Speaker 3: 34:50

Yeah, here's the thing, though Like you got to let kids, they will make their own decision about both of their parents, and if you try to meddle with that or manipulate that at all, they're make their own decision about both of their parents, and if you try to meddle with that or manipulate that at all, they're also going to eventually see that, even if they're young.

Speaker 1: 35:04

Yes.

Speaker 3: 35:05

And when they see that bad news for you and your relationship with your kids, I'm just telling you you got to let the kids come up with their own conclusion, and that is so much easier said than done. I've definitely let things slip that I wish I hadn't. Of course I have. I've tried my best not to, but I definitely have, and there's probably been elements where they're like oh man, he thinks this about mom, which is a bummer, and I wish I wouldn't have done any of those things. But I try my best to just let them have whatever opinion they need to have. And now my oldest is only 12. So they're all still pretty young, but even with my oldest now I've started to just be a little bit more. Let's talk about this concept for a second. There's a difference between honesty and privacy, so you can be honest with your kids and not share every single detail.

Speaker 1: 36:01

That's right.

Speaker 3: 36:02

And that's really critical because at age appropriate levels, it's age appropriate to share some details. It's not appropriate to share other details. If I were to sit down my youngest was really little at the time and this doesn't even apply to me because there weren't any affairs or anything. But let's just say that there is an affair and you sit down my youngest was really little at the time and this doesn't even apply to me because there weren't any affairs or anything. But let's just say that there is an affair and you sit down and you explain to your five-year-old the affair that happened. That's completely inappropriate. Yes, I would call that child abuse. That is completely inappropriate.

Speaker 3: 36:31

If your adult son comes to you at 22 and says I really want to know what happened to your dad Did mom have an affair? Then you have a choice to make. If you decide that you want to tell him that information, why not? He's 22 years old. You have to decide if that's a good for you and your relationship with him. You can still choose not to, but it's very different telling him at 22 than telling him at four.

Speaker 1: 36:56

Yes.

Speaker 3: 36:57

So you got to figure out age appropriate ways of having these conversations for sure. But the other thing is it's just going to look bad on you. If you are trying to, kids can pick up on it. They see, when people are trying to manipulate them, when they're trying to convince them even little kids do they just do. Yeah, I would like the, I like the direction that we're talking about this with. You know, manipulate them when they're trying to convince them.

Speaker 1: 37:17

Even little kids do they just do. Yeah, I like the. I like the direction that we're talking about this with. You know, being in the divorce space now and having kids, my children are in their early 30s and so just recently, like this past year so we had a bit of a struggle that our their mom and I split when they were preschoolers, and so it's been quite a number of years and it's always been a bit of a distant relationship with my two boys for several reasons. But my youngest one now has started to dad's at that point where I'm starting to be cool again to hang out with and you want to spend a little bit.

Speaker 1: 37:55

He's asking for advice, and so we've got a beautiful backyard, a fire pit and that, and so this past summer he was over, he'd come by and have a chat and he's asking me about things and about relationships, and while it wasn't directly about my marriage with his mom, he wanted to use it as an analogy because he's 30.

Speaker 1: 38:13

And so to your point between honesty and privacy. So it was more of a conversation about conceptual things, because he was going through some stuff in his relationship and said, okay, this is what I'm witnessing, how your relationship's unfolding, and this is how similar how it looked in my relationship with your mom. So we got into talking about things about trust in the relationship and when, how and how he was showing up and what's what is acceptable for him to allow to happen and not, and what are the potential outcomes of all of that. And so it really is important to understand at what age level are you talking to your children with that, because they may not be ready for all of this stuff, and even at 30 again, even though I was pretty mindful about he doesn't need to know the gory details. That doesn't it's, I'm sure on your podcast, interviewing guys have gone through some pretty horrific stuff. It's not about the detail or the gore or the horror of it. It's about that transformational journey that they've gone through.

Speaker 3: 39:20

I make it very clear to people when I'm coming on a podcast, because a lot of people want to hear specifics about my story and that sort of thing. And one thing that I make really clear whenever I guest on a podcast is I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus ever. I'm more interested in what's better for your audience, or any audience, is to hear how this transformed my life so that can be an inspiration to them and how that might transform their life. No one is better by me coming on here and bitching about whatever my ex did 100%.

Speaker 3: 39:52

It just doesn't make anybody better.

Speaker 1: 39:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:55

And I would also caution men that are watching and listening to this right now. Be even cautious when you talk to your bros about this sort of thing as well, because the more you reiterate something in your head, the more you believe it. It's like the concept of a lot of guys get upset with me when they're out there in the dating world and I'm in the dating world as well, so I understand this and they'll read a dating profile or meet with a woman or whatever, and they'll hear men are blank, women are blank. Men are always blank. The more you say that, even if you're joking, the more your brain believes it. Yeah, so stop saying it, because it's not true. There is no. Men are always blank, women are always, but there is no statement that's true of right. There just isn't. So stop saying it, and I would encourage you to stop saying that in your relationships as well, because I'm again. I've done this plenty of times, so I'm not saying I figured this out. I just know the more of those thoughts that I allow to enter my mind, even if somebody else is saying it. Let's take this one step further. Even if somebody else is, she is blank. If you don't correct them. You believe it Even if you don't believe it. You believe it even if you don't believe it. It's subtle, it's very subtle. But if you are constantly talking to your parent or your sibling or your friend and they're constantly saying whatever about your ex or whoever it's about, if you're not correcting it, you're not correcting your brain and you're just allowing it to go in your brain and eventually it's going to come out in ways that you don't expect. It really is so real quick too, alan, before I forget, I wanted to offer a resource to all your listeners and viewers as well.

Speaker 3: 41:48

So that ebook that you mentioned the five traps men face when going through divorce and how to triumph over them you can feel free to go on Amazon right now, look up my name and go buy it. Or, if you want, reach out to me on Instagram. Send me a message. My handle I'll give it to you for the show notes later. I think the one you have is actually inaccurate. My Instagram handle is Josh the derelict. D E R E L I C T. So, josh the derelict, if you just send me-E-L-I-C-T. So, josh the Derelict, if you just send me a message on Instagram, please send me these words revolutionary ebook Because that'll remind me that it's coming from the Revolutionary man podcast, where we are right now, and that you want the ebook. So send me revolutionary ebook to Josh the Derelict and I will send you a copy of it for free.

Speaker 3: 42:38

Love that, brother Love that and honestly, even if you already gone through a divorce, send it anyway. I tell you there are things in that book that you have not done yet or that you could do better. I promise you, because when I read that book myself and I wrote it I'm like man, I could do better at this. So read it and then, if you want additional, I'll add one other thing. If you also want additional resources like we're talking about age, appropriate ways of talking about divorce, things like that Send me a message at Josh the derelict and I'm happy to send you other resources as well, other books that I have Happy to send you other resources as well.

Speaker 1: 43:17

Other books that I have, et cetera, love that, I love that.

Speaker 3: 43:19

I'm really sorry to pot, Can you? Can I pause for just one second? I have to grab something in the room.

Speaker 1: 43:29

I apologize, you know one of the last things, a couple of things. I want to summarize what we've been talking about and really we've been teasing all around the idea of leadership and really about being strong leaders. If you were to come across a man right now who is struggling either with his personal or his professional life and looking for some help, what advice would you be giving him?

Speaker 3: 43:46

today. That's a great question and you're actually bringing up something that I wanted to say earlier that I forgot. So I appreciate you saying that when we have all this conversation about taking responsibility for your action and it goes back to let's go back to the definition of failure. If you look up the definition of failure, the first definition is not succeeding, which is not a helpful definition. If you look at the second definition of failure, it says that something you were intending to do I'm paraphrasing here, of course something that you were intending to do, some sort of goal that you're intending to do, was not accomplished. So all failure is that somebody set out for something and it didn't happen. Now, if that's the definition of failure, that means I fail every single day of my life. Now, if that's the definition of failure, that means I fail every single day of my life. If I was trying to walk across the room without tripping and I trip, that's a failure. But we have in our mind that a failure means I'm a failure as a person.

Speaker 1: 44:50

Yes.

Speaker 3: 44:52

It turns into shame. It turns into I am a terrible person, I'm worthless and it's not even worth sticking around. So here's something that I think is really important for everybody to hear this is not a message of pick up yourself by your bootstraps and try again. That's not what we're saying here. Failure is an opportunity to have some awareness of what's going on in your life, to be confident, gentle and loving with yourself through that, to stay curious about what's going on and then figure out what you want for your life. That's it. It's a really simple process. The very first step, which I would say is probably the most important process, the very first step, which I would say is probably the most important, is just staying curious.

Speaker 3: 45:39

It's easy for me, and I think it is for us as men in general, to see a problem and want to fix it, to see something that's wrong and say that's wrong. It's not wrong, it's just different than we want it to be. So the very first thing I have to do to be gentle with myself is to be curious about what about this is wrong? Right, what about this is wrong? I'll put it in quotes what about this is what I don't want it to be, and if I can stay curious about that, then I can be honest with myself about what it is where I'm at right now and where I want to go. There's no shame in that, because that doesn't mean I failed as a person. It just means that I'm in a different spot than where I want to be. If I can do that in a curious way without shaming myself, it's much easier to come up with a game plan of what to do next. If you shame yourself and you say that you're a shitty person, it's really hard to build a game plan around that, because that just turns into a cycle of I'm terrible and this is terrible and everything's terrible and we're all terrible. It just doesn't help anybody. So I would say the first thing is just be curious about what you're feeling.

Speaker 3: 46:53

And this could be a very simple exercise where you literally take out a notepad and just write down Just be curious. Pretend like you are an observer of yourself. If you were viewing somebody else acting the way that you're acting and thinking what you're thinking, and you're viewing them in a coffee shop, what would you write about them? Let's say that you're a poet. You just want to write down whatever it is that you see about that person, feel the same way about yourself, then be curious about what you read and be very aware if there's any judgment that you're giving of yourself while you're reading this, Because even if you're curious during that, you might read it and then judge yourself Like that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. During that, you might read it and then judge yourself that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong.

Speaker 3: 47:36

It's part of the reason not to toot my own horn or your own horn, alan, but it's part of the reason I personally, for myself, need a coach in my life. I have multiple coaches in my life, and it's the same reason I coach other men, because we need somebody that can not BS us and be honest with us, but also be gentle and curious with us to help us discover what's actually going on in our life, and, frankly, I'm not always good about that. I'm much better at it with other people than I am myself, though Cause for myself, I'll look at something and be like you, piece of shit, figure this out. I don't generally say that to other people. I will say that to men, though, more than my children. So if you have a hard time with this and you're listening to this. Think about it like you're saying it to your little girl or your little boy.

Speaker 3: 48:25

How are you going to speak to them? And I hope that you're a good parent that would be loving and caring with that little boy or that little girl. So be loving and caring with yourself. It does not help for you just to tell yourself that you're bad in whatever circumstance. And then what I would say is two things.

Speaker 3: 48:46

Number one get a coach, because the coach is specifically trained on how to do this. Reach out to Alan, reach out to me. You have two people right here that are willing to help you. And then, number three, take a good long hard. Look at the five people that are in your biggest circle of influence, the people you spend the most time with and, more importantly, the people that influence you the most, because whoever those people are is who you will become and who you are, whether you want to admit it or not. There was a Harvard study done several years ago about this, and what he discovered is that the five people that are most influential in your life determine wait for it 90% of your success 90%. So whoever you're surrounding yourself with, that's who you're going to become.

Speaker 3: 49:33

So if you want to become this next best version of yourself, you got to make sure that you're surrounding yourself with other people that want to become the next best version of themselves. If you want to be a person that's accountable to their actions and has somebody calling you out for stuff when you're not doing it, you got to make sure that you're around people that are willing to call you out and that can be called out by you. I found this out the hard way. I've had to transition several friendships when I've gotten to a point with those friendships, as deep as our roots were Once, I realized that I was on this path, I was willing to be called out, I was willing to do these things, et cetera.

Speaker 3: 50:10

This person wasn't doesn't make me good or bad, doesn't make them good or bad. It just means are we on the same path or are we not? Because if we're not on the same path, there's only so much value we can bring to ourselves, our lives, our relationship. And a lot of people think that's really harsh if I remove them more from my world. First of all, you don't have to completely remove them from your world. This is not a black or white thing. You don't have to completely remove them from your world. This is not a black or white thing. You don't have to be extreme about it. You just might have to set different boundaries, different rules around it. But the other thing is you're also hurting them by keeping them in your life, because if they're on this path and you're on this path, you're hurting them by not allowing them the opportunity to find other people that are on this path. Yes, whatever that path is. That's true in relationships. It's true in romantic relationships, it's true with spouses, it's true with friendships. It's just true.

Speaker 1: 51:00

Yeah, that is so true. That is so true. You talked about the Harvard study and, I think, of Jim Rohn the great. Jim Rohn used to say that as well we will become the average of the five people we hang around with the most, and it really is important to recognize who is in our circle of influence and what's happening with us. And it does mean making decisions on, yes, how often maybe you're hanging out and spending time with certain individuals, and those can be tough decisions, but if you're truly wanting to raise the level that you show up as a husband, a father, a leader, this is the work that we've been called to do. I just want to say, josh, I just love today's conversation and sharing with us the wisdom of what it means for us to reclaim our identity, redefining masculinity and really embracing being leaders in our lives. And if men are interested in getting a hold of you and participating in your work, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker 3: 51:55

I would say Instagram is the best. Just reach out to me, josh the derelict. I answer all of my own messages. I'm on there every single day, multiple times a day, messaging people. I probably message I don't know. There's a lot of people every single day, so message me there. That's probably the best way. If you don't have Instagram or you think, oh, I don't want to go that way, that's probably the best way. If you don't have Instagram or you think I don't want to go that way, that's fine, go to the derelictbiz. That's the website that gives all the contact information, other ways of getting hold of me, shows, the YouTube channel, the TikTok, the email, whatever way you want to go from there.

Speaker 1: 52:28

You betcha buddy. So I want to make sure that wherever you are hiding on the internet, we're going to make sure that people can go and find you and get a hold of you. I love today's conversation, josh. Keep up the great work, my friend. Have a great one.

Speaker 3: 52:41

Thanks, alan, appreciate you.

Speaker 2: 52:51

Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary man podcast. Are you ready to own your destiny, to become more the man you are listening to the Revolutionary man podcast? Are you ready to own your destiny, to become more the man you are destined to be? Join the brotherhood that is the Awakened man at theawakendmannet and start forging a new destiny today.