7 Essential Habits Every Young Man Needs to Succeed in 2025 with Jack Kammer

Welcome to the Revolutionary Man Podcast! In this episode, host Alain Dumonceaux explores the often-overlooked and misunderstood challenges facing men and boys today. Joined by guest Jack Kammer, an advocate and author addressing male gender issues, they discuss societal expectations, stereotypes, and biases that impact men's mental health, education, and relationships. Jack shares personal experiences, insights from his career in social work, and discusses the concepts of 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic femininity.' They further explore the importance of joint custody during divorces, the significance of emotional expression for men, and ways to create a more equitable society by redefining traditional gender roles. Visit malefriendlymedia.com for more resources and insights from Jack Kammer. Tune in to learn how addressing male gender issues can contribute to a more balanced and equitable society for all.

Key moments in this episode:

04:00 Jack Kammer's Journey: Death and Rebirth Moments

05:53 Challenging Gender Stereotypes

09:15 The Evolution of Gender Equality

11:40 Parental Roles and Societal Expectations

24:53 The Impact of Divorce on Fatherhood

30:03 Understanding Joint Custody

34:20 Challenges in Joint Custody and Mediation

37:47 Toxic Masculinity and Femininity

41:51 Breaking Gender Roles and Stereotypes

49:30 Practical Advice for Men

How to reach Jack:

🕸️: https://www.malefriendlymedia.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/malefriendlymedia/

📺: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrLW85qrmP5ezOvz1M--INw

Chapters

• 0:00 The Forgotten Half of Gender Equality
• 7:15 Jack's Awakening to Male Gender Issues
• 17:20 Breaking Down Stereotypes of Men
• 29:06 The Revolution of Shared Parenting
• 38:26 Toxic Masculinity vs Toxic Femininity
• 48:09 Integrity and "I Feel" Statements
• 53:47 Closing Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

You know, imagine a world where half of humanity's struggles are often overlooked, dismissed or even minimized. While the focus on women's issues is being transformative and necessary, the experience of men and boys, be it at their mental health, struggles with education or societal expectations, are frequently sidelined. What happens when these untold stories are brought to light? How does addressing the male gender issues contribute to a more balanced and equitable society? In today's episode, we're going to explore this complex and often misunderstood challenges facing men, and especially boys, today, and we're going to uncover societal structures that perpetuate these struggles and discuss what can be done to create real, lasting change. But before we jump into today's discussion, let's address something else that many of us struggle with. It's the feeling of being out of alignment. The demands of life can pull us in countless directions, leaving us overwhelmed, disconnected and unsure of how to move forward.

Speaker 1: 0:58

That's why I want to tell you about Living With Integrity. This isn't just another program. It's a proven path to rediscovering your purpose, rebuilding trust in your relationships and creating a future that reflects who you truly are. It's about stepping into the man you know you were meant to be. If you've had enough frustration, stagnation and uncertainty, this is your opportunity to take action. I want you to go visit memberstheawakenedmannet and complete our free integrity challenge. It's the first step to take and the rewards are going to be life-changing. Live with intention, lead with integrity, and let's get started now. Let's get on with today's episode.

Speaker 2: 1:41

The average man today is sleepwalking through life, many never reaching their true potential, let alone ever crossing the finish line to living a purposeful life. Yet the hunger still exists, albeit buried amidst his cluttered mind, misguided beliefs and values that no longer serve him. It's time to align yourself for greatness. It's time to become a revolutionary man. Stay strong, my brother.

Speaker 1: 2:10

Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast. I'm the founder of the Awakened man Movement and your host, alan DeMonsoul. Are we truly addressing the root causes of societal challenges if we continue to overlook the unique struggles of men and boys? And what changes might occur if we begin viewing gender issues as human issues, where the well-being of all individuals is being interdependent? The struggles for men and boys are deeply intertwined with broader societal issues, and addressing them isn't about creating division. It's about building understanding and equity for everyone. So today we're going to explore what it means to challenge the status quo, confront biases, foster genuine progress, and with that I'll allow me to introduce my guest.

Speaker 1: 2:57

So Jack Kammer has his master's in social work. He's an author and advocate dedicated to addressing male gender issues and fostering a more inclusive dialogue around societal challenges, and, with experience as a correctional officer and a parole and probation agent in Baltimore, jack's later worked with the National Fatherhood Initiative. This is a training prison staff to support incarcerated fathers. Love that work, jack and he founded Working Well with Men, a consultancy that provides tools to help men build stronger connections and relationships. He's also the author, as I said, of multiple books and a seasoned speaker. Jack has consistently championed the need for empathy and balance and addressing the often overlooked struggles faced by men and boys. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to the show jack. How, how are things, my friend?

Speaker 3: 3:45

Very well, Alan. As my favorite uncle used to say, I'm peachy.

Speaker 1: 3:50

Right on. Love that, love that as Jack. Here at the Revolutionary man podcast, we always talk about everyone being on their own hero's journey or, as we like to call it, a hero's quest. So tell us about that point, that point point in the quest, your death and rebirth moment, and how that experience shaped you into the man you are today and the work you're doing so I think I've had a lot of death and rebirth moments or maybe they weren't complete deaths, maybe they were just near-death experiences.

Speaker 3: 4:21

I remember, remember the first one as a child Didn't realize it had anything to do with gender, because I didn't know what gender was back then, didn't know about expectations, sex roles, any of that stuff, stereotypes, biases. But you know how it's wrong for people to say to little girls gee, susie, you're really good at math for a girl. Or gee, mary, you're really good at sports for a girl. What I used to hear and I didn't really understand it for what it was, but I just knew something wasn't quite right what I used to to hear was gee, jack, you're really good with babies for a boy. And if we think of what we know about how wrong it is to tell a girl that she's good at math for a girl, and a girl who's good at sports to tell her she's good at sports for a girl, you could get a an idea of how a young boy like me, who loved babies, still loves babies felt when he heard you're really good with babies for a boy, yeah, what. So what's that mean? Is there something wrong with me? Am? Am I an oddball? Am I a weirdo? Should I stay out of this territory? It's mostly women around the babies. Maybe I don't belong here, maybe. So that was. It wasn't even a near-death experience, but it was like a whack upside the head. That something was wrong here upside the head. Yeah, that something was wrong here.

Speaker 3: 6:11

Then, much later, I was on a co-ed softball team and we would play each week and after each game, after each week, we would go out for beer and dancing and a little food. And two weeks in a row I found myself sitting with two different one each time teammates, female teammates and I'm a pretty good listener and they were telling me tales of woe about their boyfriends. And they both ended their stories, their tales of woe about their boyfriends, with and so he's a real jerk, don't you think he's a real jerk, don't you think? And all I could say both times was maybe he's a jerk based on what you're telling me. From his point of view, maybe it looks like this. And both times I offered something that you and I would probably see as perfectly obviously within the realm of real possibility of how this fellow was thinking and feeling. And both times they said oh my god, I never thought of that and it was.

Speaker 3: 7:16

That was the real kicker for me to start my radio show in 19 this was 1982, started the radio show in 1983 to do a radio show about what's really going on with men, based on the idea that the male point of view is not very well understood. Not that there was only one male point of view. Generally, looking at things from a man's point of view is not very often done, and perhaps that's at least in part because the male point of view is not very well articulated. And it's not because I'm the only articulate person that I thought I could do that. But I was one of the few people who was willing to say I don't care that this might make women mad. I'm going to say look, you're not perfect, you don't understand us perfectly anymore than we understand you perfectly. So, come on, let's have a, let's have a dialogue, let's have a partnership. So that's, those are my two main kickstarts.

Speaker 1: 8:17

I love that. What I appreciate excuse me, what I'm appreciating about your story is how easily that we've done that and when we talked about for a girl or for a boy and I remember that so vividly about how we would stereotype and demean one side or the other. I'm the oldest of five and the third came around when I was six years old. So really from the time I was six I was helping around the house. I was six, I was helping around the house and I can recall like having aunts and uncles not come over and just be all so impressed for a young boy to be looking after his brothers and his sisters. But I wouldn't have made that connection until you mentioned it just now. And how you get we have stereotypes built into, hardwired into our society. So in your work, have you been finding now that there's still this stereotype and this, these hardwired ideas, and, if so, how can we start to break free from some of these?

Speaker 3: 9:14

Well, we're going to need some time, first of all, if you think about the women's movement and all the work that had to be done to dig out from under all of the stereotypes about women, and how those stereotypes reinforced ideas of female inferiority and the countervailing male superiority, and how those stereotypes kept women out of certain occupations that men not because they're bad but because they're human wanted to keep for themselves, especially because they had been assigned the role of provider, and so they needed to have access to money through their jobs. So that's the template for what we need to do, and it didn't happen in 28 seconds. The story, the description I just gave it, took 50, 75, 100 years, depending on how far you want to go back. What we're having trouble with, now that women are human, they want what they want. Sometimes they can be selfish, not because they're evil or bad or horrible, but because they're human. They want to keep what they've got and they have in their domain, like we had, our economic domain. Women have in their domain a very wonderful thing, which is primary access, primary responsibility for, for relationships with children, kids, people who love you, because they love you, you know you are important to them and you care about them, which is very much more enriching, to my way of thinking. Now, not every man will think like this. Not every man wants to be heavily involved in the care and love and nurturance of kids, although I think a lot of men are more than they're able to fulfill. So what I need to do, what my mission, is to point out that in the early 60s, when betty fordan you ever heard that name?

Speaker 3: 11:48

No, betty fordan is pretty much credited with starting the current wave of feminism in 1963, she published a book called the feminine mystique. She went on to be, she went on to become the first president of the national organization for Women and she was very friendly to men in her book. Actually, I was surprised when I read her book. I thought she's going to be mean and demeaning and condescending to men and equality. In non-traditional female domains, domains they faced a problem with some women saying wait a second. I'm hearing that men are talking about equality too, and a lot of men are saying it sounds good to them, but what they're talking about is being equal parents and we're not really sure we want that, because we really love being the primary parent now, just as men who wanted to keep their union jobs for themselves were not evil chauvinist pigs. They were just human beings trying to do their jobs and do what's expected of them. Women weren't bad for feeling that way, but they did and still do feel that way. Many of them still do feel that way now.

Speaker 3: 13:28

You will often hear people respond by saying oh, that's not true. I don't know any women who don't want their husbands to be more involved around the house. Now, what's that mean? I want them to clean more, I want them to go shopping more, I want them to cook more and I want them to be involved with the kids more. They'll admit to themselves each other. I don't really like it so much when the kids come running to him. If they fall down and skin their knee, I don't like him. I don't like it when they run right past me and go daddy, now it's not bad that they get a little twinge of pain when that happens. It's only bad if they want to try to stop it from happening.

Speaker 3: 14:09

Right, it's only bad if they want to keep the husband, the father, from feeling that same sense of joy and compassion and love and being needed and being wanted at home in a way that's very different from how they are treated as part members of the team. You're an important part of the team here at Acme Widget Company. It's just a whole different thing, and women have primary access to that and it is to our detriment as men. Just as keeping women out of business was bad for them, kept them from having access to money and external fulfillment, it's bad for men to have a sort of the obverse. It's not the reverse, but it's perpendicular, it's in a different dimension. It's bad for us to be focused just on our provider role. The revolution we need to have as men is to be able to say look, you want equality where we traditionally were primary. We got to have equality where you were traditionally primary. And please stop saying that, oh, raising kids is so demeaning and it's all about stinky diapers, because you know that's not true and we know that's not true. It does involve stinky diapers, but that's not all. But that's not all Now.

Speaker 3: 15:43

The beauty of this is that Betty Friedan in the 1980s said look, the dialogue has gone on too long in terms of women alone. Let men join women at the center of the second stage, because it is true that many women really do want men to be more involved, not just at home cleaning up. They really do want the men to be at home taking care of the kids, because some women good, wonderful women, who love being mothers it's just not the most fulfilling thing for them and they want to be lawyers and doctors and astronauts and whatever they want to be. But it's difficult for them if they have to worry about what's going on at home or at the daycare center. And so the partnership comes from the fact that there are guys like me.

Speaker 3: 16:36

I was in corporate life for a while and I hated it. I just hated it. The politics, the fakery, the phoniness, the backslablapping, the back-stabbing I didn't like it at all. And a guy like me with a woman who wants to be a CEO could be a really good combination, and I would be a lot happier than being stuck in corporate world and she would be a lot happier than being stuck in domestic, home duties world. And that's the possibility that we have here Now.

Speaker 3: 17:10

It's not going to be anytime soon. It's not going to be easy. It's not going to even involve every man, because a lot of men they got to be at the factory and of course there are ways to make things work. There's job sharing, there are split shifts. There's there are ways to make things work. There's job sharing, there are split shifts. There are possibilities. The important thing is that we've got to get serious about trying to make it happen for every man as much as we can, just as we have tried really hard over the past 60-some years, since Betty Friedan's book, to help women have full options and opportunities in the world where we used to be primary.

Speaker 1: 17:50

That makes complete sense to me, jack, and what I was noting here was just I think it's really a challenge of both sexes having to get shift their paradigm of what life needs to what life needs, to what life looks like.

Speaker 1: 18:03

And I think what I'm finding as well in my work in the men's sphere is we still have this large component of men's work that's still very much of a red pill type of idea, and not that there's anything wrong with that, and but I also see that also can hinder us from moving to things like we're talking about today.

Speaker 1: 18:26

I would completely agree. I think the challenge that we have is that we need to allow enough flexibility to merge into each other's domains of dominance, I'll say, or prominence, so that we can have a better understanding of what total parenthood is. And I want to touch a little bit we've been touching a little bit on fatherhood, but to dive a little deeper into that as well, because when we stay stuck as this, in the same routine that we've been doing now for the last 50 years, it's it comes to the point where the only thing that's important, or the only thing that ever gets talked about, is equal pay for equal work. It's about the career woman. It's never about how couples can balance the demands placed on them in today's society. And so how does that look, and how do we bring the men into this picture? And that seems to still be a challenge. What are your thoughts?

Speaker 3: 19:25

Yes, I think you're exactly right. The women's movement was never a negotiation. The women's movement was about women getting together and saying we got a lot of things we don't like and we're going to change them. We're not going to stand for this anymore. We're going to change them. We're not going to stand for this anymore.

Speaker 3: 19:47

It would have been really nice, given the fact that men and women have, basically though some friction arises from time to time, and big friction sometimes but basically men and women have been partners for eons, or the, or the adults in the room of the human species. So, instead of women asking their partners how a change in the partnership should look to them, instead of asking men what would you like in this idea of gender equality? It wasn wasn't a negotiation, it was a shakedown and it was based on shame. You guys are male chauvinist pigs, you're selfish, you're mean, and the kicker was calling us oppressors. And that is how, in my view, that is how women were able to justify the very obvious injustice of engaging us in a discussion of how this partnership was going to change. It was entirely unilateral and they wanted to keep it unilateral because they didn't really like the idea of us having equality which would require them to give up things. They only wanted the kind of equality which would allow them to get things and have as many options in life as they wanted. The the negotiation needed to be gentlemen, what would you like? And I have no doubt that even back in 1963, 64, the early 60s, I have no doubt that many men would have said thank you for asking. Um, we do have some concerns about what you guys are talking about for yourselves. If you're really interested in what we would like and how we could make this work, we really would like a lot less pressure on making money.

Speaker 3: 22:03

The latest research I've seen from the Pew Research Center indicates that men, even more than women these days, say I do not spend enough time with my kids. So there are huge opportunities here for everybody to benefit. If we don't have zero sum thinking, if we don't think that more for you means less for me. Right Now, in the short term, more for you might mean less for me, but think about when you were a kid. You wanted to.

Speaker 3: 22:27

You were told to share things. And why is it a good idea to share things? Because it gives you more friends and your friends are more willing to do things for you. And so it's not just plus one minus one, it's synergy and there is more for everybody. And if men and women could work out a deal that wasn't based on shaming men and shutting men up and stereotyping us about all of the horrible things that we supposedly do, which not coincidentally in my view, but purposefully in my view render us unsuited to be primary parents, because primary parents can't be. All of these stereotypes Violent, impatient, mean, stupid, clueless, can't multitask, just want to sit on the couch and watch football, drink beer, chase girls, and all of those stereotypes. What are they designed to do? Pretty much the same thing, I think, as the stereotypes we had about women 50, 60, 70 years ago. They can't do math.

Speaker 3: 23:30

They cry too much, they can't make hard decisions. All of those stereotypes were ways of justifying keeping women out.

Speaker 3: 23:37

it's not their fault that they're like this, but it's just they're women and all of the stereotypes, all of the man bashing that takes place around men and our flaws our human flaws, I think are being weaponized to maintain what should be a gate that was lifted 40, 50 years ago. Now I want to mention one other aspect of this thing. You want to jump in with a question? No, corey, I'm. They grew up with it and, of course, up about what great fathers are going to be and how much they're going to love their kids and their kids are going to love them and they're going to play together and going to have really deep, meaningful relationships, much better than I had with my dad. That's the thinking. We're going to do it different here and that's wonderful, and there are a lot of women who really do sincerely support that.

Speaker 3: 24:53

However, in the eventuality of a divorce, which can happen in the eventuality of a divorce, the woman can still and I believe women still want to be able to pull rank on the father, and two words no three words encapsulate the feeling, and the three words are I'm the mother, I'm the mother and you're the yeah, you're the dad, you've been a great dad and everything, but I'm the mother, and everybody knows kids need their mothers more than they leave, more than they need fathers. So goodbye, I'm going to Indiana, or I'm going to be on the tenure track at Indiana University and you can fly out a couple of times during the summer to see them. That still is very much within the realm of possibility and it can destroy a man.

Speaker 3: 25:53

Possibility and it can destroy a man as you can imagine, as you can imagine, it can destroy a man, and you know, if we want men to be invested in their kids, we need to protect their investments. You wouldn't put your money into a bank that wasn't federally insured. How do we expect men to put their whole hearts and souls into relationships that can be blown up like that? It's, it's gotta.

Speaker 3: 26:23

it's gotta change, it's gotta stop and one of the worst one of the worst ways that I am seeing in how women can turn their backs on their pledge of having a fully involved and fully respected and equal father in her kids' lives is this phenomenon called parental alienation, which is, you know what it is.

Speaker 1: 26:50

I've heard the term, but I'll explain it for our audience.

Speaker 3: 26:53

Parental alienation is a behavior on the part of some parents, primarily women here, At the time of divorce, when a father is saying you are not taking my kids from me, this is not what we bargained for, this is wrong. Lawyers will tell her Friends will tell her. Lawyers will tell her friends will tell her just talk to the kids and explain why you're better for them than daddy is. Daddy doesn't really love you because daddy spent a lot of Saturdays at work and sometimes he couldn't come to your soccer games and I would never do that. That kind of thing. That's parental alienation. I love you more than he does. Never do that. That kind of thing. That's parental alienation. I love you more than he does. A little worse than that is I love you more and he doesn't.

Speaker 3: 27:46

He's a bad person and the stereotypes are such that the judge is caught, the judge is trapped because judges hate domestic relations laws. They hate divorce laws because how do they know? And he's got a woman saying I'm afraid of him, the children are afraid of him. What judge is going to stick his neck out and say I don't see any evidence of that other than the fact that you're crying here next to your lawyer. I don't see any evidence of that, and so I am going to say that no, I am not going to issue an ex parte order telling your husband to stay away. I'm not going to do that. That puts him at a horrible risk of letting a really bad guy cause really bad harm. Rather than try his best to figure out what's the right way to go, it's much easier just to the saying nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM or buying IBM. Do you ever hear that saying?

Speaker 1: 28:44

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:45

Back in the day, when IBM was big blue and big heavy metal, no middle executive was going to get fired by hiring IBM to come in and do their computer system. It was a safe bet. And judges have a safe bet to say I'm going to go with the mother, I'm going to give her what she wants. Now it's getting better, but it's better in the way that it was getting better in 1919 when women got the vote in Wyoming or whenever it was. Wyoming was the first state.

Speaker 3: 29:16

So in my view, you work with individual men right, Correct and I work in the ecosystem. I'm not as nice as you are I'm as nice as you are to work with individual men about all of the bazillion different combinations of problems men can present to you. I like to work at the ecosystem level, the macro level, and provide an ecosystem that makes it a little easier for you to help out the men that you're trying to help, Because the ecosystem is better at supporting what men want and men need. To me, the biggest need in the ecosystem now is what's called a rebuttable presumption for joint custody. Should I unpack that or do you get what it's about?

Speaker 1: 30:11

Yeah, let's unpack it for our audience, for sure.

Speaker 3: 30:13

Okay, all right. So joint custody is sometimes called shared parenting, and the research is as conclusive and as definite as science is ever willing to claim. It is because science is always iterative and it's always challenging itself and looking further and finding new things. But there has been a plethora of research since about 2011 that makes many experts say there's no doubt about it Joint custody, shared parenting, full and equal relationships of both parents with the kids, which doesn't necessarily mean 50-50 time, but you don't get to pull rank on me. We work this out together. That's joint custody. I respect you, you respect me.

Speaker 3: 31:03

If we disagree about how to do something with a problem the kid is having, we'll talk about it. We'll get to a point where, if we can't work out a compromise, the best compromise will be okay. We'll go with your idea for two weeks. We'll see how that goes. If that's not making things better, let's try my way. If there's respect in the relationship, they might say yeah, that sounds good, let's do it that way. That's shared parenting in a nutshell. It's best for the kids. It's best for parents the kids, it's best for parents. It's really bad for divorce lawyers, because neither parent has to worry about being annihilated as a parent. You're in the US right, jack. You're in the US right.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Yes, In Canada, here we have this system, this group of lawyers called fairway divorce, and the premise of it and how it's built upon is that both and this only works when the couple are amenable to working through things. But what it does is it gives the couple these templates to work through things and it really gives them an opportunity to come to a consensus on their own. And so one thing it reduces a lot of tension in the divorce process. It reduces the expense. The burden isn't solely on the father any longer and it's a much as gentle as it can be, a much gentler way to have a relationship. And does anything like that exist in your work that you've been doing in the US?

Speaker 3: 32:39

Yes, the term that's often used here south of the border is mediation. Ah okay, we call it mediation and many lawyers are stepping back from their ability to make a ton of money on divorces because they could file papers and counter suits and detainers and who knows lots of paperwork they can file and it's all worth money to them. But some lawyers are saying, look, this divorce court thing is just a mess. Judges hate it, parents hate it, kids hate it, we hate it. It's just ugly, destructive stuff. We're going to make less money but we're going to be mediation lawyers and our purpose will be just to have our clients think through everything that they're talking about in mediation to help them come to a good, smart, ironclad, legally enforceable mediation.

Speaker 3: 33:37

Not every lawyer wants to do that. I don't even know if every state allows it. Some states will refuse it. If there has been any, probably in some states it says proof and probably in some states it says credible accusation of any kind of violence. If there's any suggestion of any violence, which could be as little as a woman raising her hand and saying your honor, I'm afraid of him yeah no mediation can be allowed in that situation because of the supposed power imbalance.

Speaker 1: 34:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:17

Because mediation has to be power balanced.

Speaker 1: 34:19

Yeah, but there are many.

Speaker 3: 34:20

There are many tricks still available for women who want to foil and unwind and reverse the promise they made to their husbands about what kind of parents they were going to be together.

Speaker 1: 34:36

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:37

And so a rebuttable presumption for joint custody. We're talking about that. So that's what joint custody is about. Mediation can help people arrive at good joint custody agreements. The rebuttable presumption part is this that's a fancy phrase, rebuttable presumption might not know it in these words, but if you and I'm sure in Canada you do you have in criminal cases a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, right, correct. That doesn't mean that every person is innocent. It just means that we start With believing that every person is innocent. It just means that we start with believing that this person is innocent. We have to treat him as if he's innocent until proven that he's guilty. He doesn't have to prove that he's not guilty, we have to prove that he is. That's a rebuttable presumption. It's the presumption of innocence, but the state in their prosecution can rebut that presumption by providing evidence of fingerprints and witnesses and video cameras and that's a rebuttable presumption. So a rebuttable presumption of joint custody which I would like to see in every state in the United States and in every province of Canada. Forgive me for intruding on your country, but I'd like to see it around the world.

Speaker 3: 36:00

The rebuttable presumption would say in every divorce case we start with the idea that both parents are equal and if you want to reduce him to a zoo daddy who gets to see his kids every other week, every other weekend and spend the night on Wednesdays, if you're gonna reduce him to that and feel like you can pull rank on him because you have sole custody and he's a visitor, you've got some work to do. You've got to prove why that should happen. That would make things so much better. It would be so much safer for men to. How many men do you think are out there who were telling their buddies oh my God, I love my kids and now I don't even get to see them? She pulled all this crap on me in court. What message does that send to younger men who are thinking about getting married? They're thinking about oh my God, I would die if that happened to me.

Speaker 1: 36:52

I'm not getting married.

Speaker 3: 36:53

I'm not doing this. You know about the MGTOW group.

Speaker 1: 36:57

Yeah, absolutely yeah, that's part of what's happening today, isn't it? It's groups like that that are coming, that are starting to gain traction, and men are just throwing up their hands and saying screw it.

Speaker 3: 37:06

basically, and you talked about integrity, and I'm not saying that every MGTOW man is motivated toward MGTOWness by integrity. Sometimes it's just negative thinking, but I think there are a lot of MGTOW men who are basically becoming MGTOW men primarily because of their integrity. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. I need to be treated fairly anymore. I'm not. I need to be treated fairly, and if I can't be treated fairly and have a woman who loves me and that I can love, then I guess it's just not in the cards for me. But I am not going to lose my integrity.

Speaker 1: 37:44

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I noticed in your work as well. One of the things you talk about is this idea we hear lots about toxic masculinity, but you also talk about toxic lots about toxic masculinity, but you also talk about toxic femininity. And so let's unpack those two terms and get people to have an understanding of how that's actually showing up today.

Speaker 3: 38:04

Yeah, okay. So I don't like the term toxic masculinity. I think that when it was originally coined it wasn't as toxic as it is now. Toxic masculinity was originally talked about among psychologists who were trying to figure out how can they treat men better, how can they provide better therapy for men, and they were finding that lots of times the traditional male value of being stoic and how are you today? Oh, I'm fine, perfect, it'll get, but it'll get better. I don't have any problems, and if I did, I'd solve them myself, because I'm a man and a psychologist who is running up against that is saying this is a really toxic idea. These guys have that being a man means they completely deny their realities, especially their emotional realities.

Speaker 3: 38:58

Okay, the phrase toxic masculinity was put out there. Now I believe that one of, as I mentioned, all of the negative stereotypes about men serve a purpose for women who want to stay primary in the nice, sweet, happy, friendly world of love and emotions and kids and relationships. Toxic masculinity is just the latest and one of the most virulent stereotypes. Your Honor, he's got toxic masculinity, that's. And what does that set off in his brain? Oh my god, he was accused of being a toxic man. I cannot give him shared parenting yes, against her wishes. So I think that the term toxic masculinity has really lost its essential, original meaning, and so what I say to people who try to use it as a weapon against men is to say look, you want to talk about toxic masculinity. Imagine that you lived on the side of a lake that was polluted. What would happen to the fish? The fish would get toxic. Yes, you wouldn't want to eat them. Are we going to blame the fish for that? Are we going to blame the fish for making them swim around in that mess? So to transfer it to toxic masculinity? If you think it's toxic that men don't express their feelings, wouldn't it be great if women all got together and said ladies, let's take a good hard look at all of the ways we might not even know we are discouraging men from expressing their feelings. That's how you feel. What about me? I can't believe you said that. How do you think I feel? Or, oh, poor baby, let me take out my little tiny violin, all of that stuff. So, look, be nicer to men. We deserve it, because we're not really oppressors. We might do some bad things once in a while. We really do want you to love us. We want to love you. We want to have happy lives together. I'm talking about heterosexual men here. Okay, yes.

Speaker 3: 41:48

So one of the things that I believe very deeply in my pursuit of helping the ecosystem be better is that there are enough what's the word I want to use Unhelpful women. Let's put it that way. I'll be as gentle as I can. Maybe I will say insincere feminists, untrue feminists, fake feminists. They're not really interested in equality, they're just interested in what they can get, like any lobby does, big pharma or the National Rifle Association in the United States. What I like to say in the ecosystem, trying to make the ecosystem healthier, is that there are some people who are really trying to pollute it. They don't care because it doesn't hurt them. They're not swimming in this lake, they're over there, on that ski slope over there, and so I think a lot of people find this very difficult because they think we should all sit around and sing Kumbaya. You got to talk to the ones who are really bad and you need to say okay, you want to talk about toxic masculinity. I just made a video of toxic femininity.

Speaker 3: 43:10

I did Nice Runs, about 17 minutes, and I don't mean that women are toxic no but I do mean that there are elements of female culture that are toxic, and I could show you at least one scientific peer-reviewed study that says women are 4.5 times more in, have more, 4.5 times more in-group bias than men do. Which means that if a man is talking to another man and the second man says something he did to a woman or in a relationship with a woman and it was wrong, according to the first man, there's four times 4.5 times more likelihood that the first man's going to say man, you shouldn't have done that. What's more likely to happen on the female side is that the woman who did something possibly wrong to the man would hear from her friend oh that must have been so hard for you, that must have been so hard for you. And so toxic femininity is not examining itself. Female culture is not examining itself because because we're the mothers and we wouldn't be the mothers if we weren't like almost like angels.

Speaker 1: 44:29

Creates an echo chamber, doesn't it?

Speaker 3: 44:31

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. It's called in group, it's called groupthink.

Speaker 1: 44:35

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:36

And it's rampant. It's rampant in modern culture. Yeah, I think it's probably worse in the US than it is in Canada, although we do have friends and correspondents, activists in Canada who put things into listservs that are legit At least they're legit in newspapers. It's not something out of some crazy dark web thing Bad things that are happening to men in Canada. It really needs to change and sometimes I think it's not fair. It's not fair. I know I probably shouldn't think that this has to happen, but if you had a friend who was in a, if you were in a maximum security jail and you don't think you belong there, and you had a buddy who was in a minimum security jail and he escaped, what would you want him to come and try to do? Yeah, help you out.

Speaker 3: 45:35

He's trying to break me out of there somehow yeah so the women's movement made a point out of the fact that women's work is undervalued. I'd say, fine, I got that. What's the other side of it? Men, men's work is overvalued. And so when women said we don't really want to stay at home and raise the kids 24-7, 365. We want some new stuff. The culture said, oh, that's going to be a big change, but okay, we can live with that. Men are not so easily broken out of their prison. Men are in maximum security prison because society values what men do. Where we are, yes.

Speaker 3: 46:29

If men had said we're not going to be focusing so much money, so much time on making money and we're going to go on strike that way and we're going to demand that you make as much money as I do, that would have been pandemonium. Going to demand that you make as much money as I do? That would have been pandemonium. But in a sense, it's really what needs to happen. Women are free, much more free from their traditional sex roles than men are, and so it would really be nice if women were able to say we can say some things that you can't, guys, because we understand all of the psychological tricks people play on you to keep you right where you are, like man up. It's pretty sissy, man, that you want to do that. Just toughen up and get with the program.

Speaker 3: 47:15

It's hard for men to break out of their maximum security prison and we really need women to say to us hey guys, come on out, it's okay, we're going to love you. And here, catch this key. Ideally, men should be able to do it ourselves is key. Yes, ideally, men should be able to do it ourselves. We are, in a way, in maximum security prison because our work is judged as more important than women's work. There's a way in which that's bad for women. There's a way in which that's bad for men. Our work is overvalued. We have to stay at it. We don't get. It costs society too much money when a man wants to say he wants to spend more time at a lower pressure job.

Speaker 1: 48:06

Yes.

Speaker 3: 48:07

With his kids. That costs too much money. We can't do that when we think about the synergies, because it's probably true that about it's probably maybe it's not 50%, but 40% 35% of women would really like to have careers, not just jobs, and they would like to have careers where they get to have all of the good feelings that men who like competition get to have. Yep, 35% of men maybe would really like, especially after they've had 20 years in the corporate world, would really like to say, to hell with all that, I really like being with my kids.

Speaker 1: 48:51

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:52

I'm going to stay home and I'm going to hold down the fort for you. And now, look dear, you're going to have to get used to the fact that the house isn't going to be as clean as when you were in charge of it, because I don't really care as much about a clean house as you do. All I'll promise you is that I'll make sure it's not a death trap for the kids.

Speaker 1: 49:09

Right.

Speaker 3: 49:10

Not full of mold and mildew, and I'll take care of it at a reasonable level. But you can't yell at me when I don't keep it as clean as you do.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Yeah, I think those are all great conversations that you know more. I think this generation is more open to having those conversations and I think we can start to see some change. Some of that change I want to get as we're getting closer to wrapping up today's conversation. I was just wondering if there was a one practical step or a one takeaway you'd want our audience to get from our conversations. There's so many things we touched on today, but if we could summarize a step or a or an idea to help the help men and women who are listening to the show move forward and move closer together, what would that be?

Speaker 3: 49:55

I'm a big fan of the I feel statement you familiar.

Speaker 1: 49:58

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 49:59

I'm a big fan of that and I think that is really the first step that men can take toward integrity. If he's really lacking in integrity and is afraid to say what's really real for him because he's afraid his wife will get mad or she won't love him, or she'll think he's a wimp, or he won't be able to find a girlfriend Whatever is keeping him from owning what he feels. I like to say that if a man disconnects his emotions, he's like disconnecting his spark plugs. Yeah, your emotions are the spark plugs of your personality. It's they really determine a lot about how you, how your life goes, and the I feel statement allows you, in a nice way, to just say, to state what you are feeling, what you are feeling. Not you're wrong for making me feel the way that you are making me feel, and I deserve to get what I want, because not having what I want makes me feel bad.

Speaker 3: 51:12

No, I suggest, at difficult conversations with wives and girlfriends, let me hold your hand while we talk. Yeah, and I would like to talk with you about something and it just is. Look, when this happened 20 minutes ago, I felt really whatever you felt, and it's not your fault, but can we talk about how I feel, why I feel this way and what we could do different next time. And then it works beautifully, because if the woman has any semblance of love for you left if she still respects you at all she wants to help you, she wants what's best for her family.

Speaker 3: 51:51

She'll say, oh my God, I didn't realize. Tell me, talk to me more, and she's not defensive. I didn't realize, tell me, talk to me more, and she's not defensive and you're not accusatory. And you get to leave the conversation thinking, wow, I really stood up for myself and I might not get what I want, but I got the basic thing I want, which is to just be myself, to stand up and say who I am and what's important to me. So that's what I would. That's what I would recommend as a really key thing for men who are just lost and out of gas.

Speaker 1: 52:30

Love that, I love that and absolutely the I feel statement, or is a great way to own what's happening and to keep it, and keep it within that sphere, versus pointing fingers. I just want to say, jack, we had, we spent a great deal of time talking on lots of stuff and I'm sure we could have dived in for two or three more hours, so I just want to say thank you so much for helping us get a glimpse of what some of these often overlooked challenges that men and boys are facing today. So if men are interested in getting a hold of you and participating in any of your work, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker 3: 52:56

So the hub of everything that I do is male-friendly media. All one word, no hyphens, no dash malefriendlymediacom. And that's where I have pretty much everything of any import that I've ever done, starting with my radio show back in 1983. I've been digitizing them. It's been amazing to listen to them from 42 years ago.

Speaker 1: 53:22

It's been fun.

Speaker 3: 53:23

So that's it, malefriendlymediacom.

Speaker 1: 53:25

You bet I'll make sure that's in today's show notes, as well as wherever else you are on social media and make sure that people get a chance to reach out and speak with you. You're doing phenomenal work. Thank you so much for reaching out and really enjoyed our conversation today.

Speaker 3: 53:37

I did too. I'll thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 53:47

Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary man podcast. Are you ready to own your destiny, to become more the man you were destined to be? Join the brotherhood that is the Awakened man at theawakendmannet and start forging a new destiny today.