What They Don't Tell You About Being a Real Leader with Kevin Eikenberry

Discover the secret to becoming a truly impactful leader in this episode of the Revolutionary Man Podcast, hosted by Alain Dumonceaux. Joined by Kevin Eikenberry, Chief Potential Officer of the Eikenberry Group, they explore the power of asking better questions, the importance of flexibility and intentionality in leadership, and how these skills translate into personal life as a father and husband. Gain insights on moving past habits, embracing uncertainty, and the mindset needed for effective leadership. Stay tuned for practical advice and a special offer to build your confidence and lead with clarity.

Key moments in this episode:

03:11 The Journey of Letting Go: Leading with Questions

14:47 Applying Leadership Lessons to Personal Life

17:29 Advice for Overwhelmed Men

19:50 The Importance of Perspective

21:13 The Dangers of Self-Stereotyping

25:28 Final Thoughts and Resources

How to reach Kevin:

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kevineikenberryfanpage/
• X: https://twitter.com/kevineikenberry
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/KevinEikenberryGroup
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevineikenberry/
• IG: http://instagram.com/kevineikenberry
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/user/w2ee6dv7qapscal92kmbae46a?si=jvSAv7YfQ92ypVtBvLgwTw

Chapters

• 0:00 Rethinking Leadership Through Questions
• 1:10 Show Open and Mission of the Podcast
• 2:26 Meet Kevin Eikenberry and His New Book
• 3:15 Letting Go of Having All the Answers
• 5:55 Building Flexibility Over Autopilot Habits
• 9:15 Intentionality, Reflection, and “It Depends”
• 13:10 Transferable Lessons to Home and Family
• 16:08 Overwhelm, Perspective, and Breathing Space
• 20:15 Feedback, 360s, and Multi‑Dimensional Identity
• 24:05 The Trap of Labels and Personality Models
• 27:20 It’s Not About Us: Outcomes Through Others
• 29:40 Becoming Outwardly Focused and Empathic

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

What if the secret to become truly impactful leader isn't about all the answers, but it's about learning to ask better questions, especially in uncertain times. And when was the last time that you pause to reflect, not just on how you've achieved, but on how you're showing up as a father, a husband, or even a leader? And so if you've ever felt that leadership was supposed to be this clear-cut way, only to find yourself lost in complexity, then I think you're going to be in the right place today. This episode is going to challenge and inspire you to make sure that you hit subscribe, rate the show, share it with a friend, especially any man that you're spending time with that really needs to hear this lesson so that he can lead with more confidence and especially with clarity. And so with that, let's get on with today's episode.

SPEAKER_00: 0:50

The average man today is sleepwalking through life. Many never reaching their true potential, let alone ever crossing the finished line to living a purposeful life. Yet the hunger still exists, albeit buried amidst his cluttered mind, his patted beliefs and values that no longer serve him. It's time to align yourself for greatness. It's time to become a revolutionary man. Stay strong, my brother.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19

Welcome back, everyone, to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. My name is Alan DeMonso, and I'm the host of this podcast. I'm so grateful for us to have this conversation. And before we came from back from our break, I asked a couple of powerful questions for you to consider about leadership, especially when we consider that these uncertain times and the things that are happening around us. And it's important for us not only to pause and reflect, but also for us to understand that there are powerful questions about leadership and the opportunity for us to step up. And so imagine you standing in this storm of change, unsure of which way to move forward. And so you've built the success by knowing, by doing, and by driving hard. But now I suggest the rules are starting to change, aren't they? And the leaders of today aren't those that are rigid in their plans and how they show up, but those who know how to bend, to adapt, and to grow. And so as we explore this, it's going to take us the opportunity to explore our strength with flexibility. And so we're going to uncover what that wisdom looks like coming through some really deep introspections and some courageous reinvention. And to help us do that, I'm joined by Kevin Eikenberry. He's the chief potential officer of the Eikenberry Group. He's a best-selling author and one of the world's top leading thinkers. His new book, Flexible Leadership: Navigating Uncertainty to Lead with Confidence, is perhaps his most powerful work yet. Welcome to the show, Kevin. How are things, my friend?

SPEAKER_01: 2:47

Things are great. Thank you for having me. You've set this up well and you've given people some really good things to think about. Hopefully, I can live up to where you've started.

SPEAKER_02: 2:56

I have no doubt that you're going to do a phenomenal job for us today. And as you know, here at the Revolutionary Man podcast, we talk about all of us being on our own hero's journey or hero's quest. And so in yours, you mentioned a moment of this death and rebirth that really involved of you having to let go of needing to have all the answers as a leader. And boy, I can really resonate with that. So can you take us back to that moment? And what really changed for you?

SPEAKER_01: 3:22

I don't know if I can tell you what the moment was, but I can tell you that that recognition, that understanding that, as you said earlier, actually to lead with questions more than lead with answers. We are brought up in school to have the answers. And there's an answer and there's a right answer. And if we get the right answer, we are rewarded for that. Then we go into the workplace. And if we want to succeed and move on and be promoted, then we're working hard to build our expertise, build our knowledge so that we have the answers to the questions that come before us. And then we get promoted because we were good at doing that work, right? And so when we become a leader, we're already predisposed to feel like we're supposed to have the answers. And there's a heavy weight on our shoulders about having the right answers. And I'm not saying that as I am saying as leaders that we need to strive to be wise, but wisdom isn't just answers. Wisdom is recognizing where we can add value, when we need to ask rather than answer, and thinking that all through. And when I realized that the path forward to being a more effective leader, to being a more effective man, to being a more effective human was to not was to let go of the ego need to have the answer all the time, but rather to help others find answers or for us to collectively find answers together, things really started to change for me.

SPEAKER_02: 4:50

Yeah, that makes so much sense for what you're saying there, Kevin. Because in one of the things I wrote down here, it says me knowing when to add value. And sometimes I think some knowing that value is for us to be quiet.

SPEAKER_01: 5:03

100%. And as leaders, there's no question that whether you've taken an assessment that says that you're more extroverted or more introverted, doesn't matter. Like it, this is a bigger challenge if you're more extroverted. But for all of us, because we put on that leader hat, there are it's I will almost assure you that there are times you're talking too much.

SPEAKER_02: 5:24

Yeah, I completely agree. I catch myself many times trying to step into the conversation and challenging myself just to just wait out. There's a little bit more coming. There's a piece of wisdom that I need to hear if I just pay attention and just take a breath. And I think it's so important in today's environment because a lot of people are looking for leaders to make decisions. And ultimately it does fall to us as leaders to make decisions, but we also have to recognize that we need to be flexible. And that's what you talk a lot about in this in your latest book, and that it's really an essential skill. So, how do we begin cultivating this idea of flexibility as leaders?

SPEAKER_01: 6:05

The first thing is to recognize that if we're going to be flexible, that means that we have to go against our natural tendencies, our what we might consider to be our style, and all of our auto-responses or habits. So the challenge of saying I'm going to be flexible means, as you said, in the open, that we have to be willing to stop and reflect at least for a moment, because otherwise we will just do what comes naturally. And again, as I said earlier, because we've had some level of success earlier in our careers, we tend to think that's what we're supposed to do. That's the answer. We're supposed to move forward. And in a world of greater uncertainty and complexity, sometimes waiting is better. Sometimes we need to ask more and talk less. Sometimes we need to shut up. Sometimes we need to speak up. It just depends on what the context of the situation tells us. So to be flexible means that we can honor our experience, but not lean into it automatically, that we can recognize our tendencies and yet not automatically go with what we've always done. Because as we all know, we keep doing what we've always done, we'll keep getting what we've always gotten. And in a world that's changing. So let's just think about it this way. If we'll just go back five years, which as it turns out is about the time of a pandemic, but it wouldn't matter if there'd have been a pandemic or not. If you're leading exactly the way you led five years ago, in a world that's changing, in a world of uncertainty and complexity, is it likely that you're more effective now or less? I'll take the second bet that in a world that's changing, the changes are not conspiring to come closer to your natural approach to leading. And so while some things about leadership aren't changing, the things that are changing, our specific approach to specific situations, we have to be open to doing that. If we're if we aren't, our results will should be shown.

SPEAKER_02: 8:07

I completely agree with that statement. I have a couple of thoughts going through my mind. I used to I had a mentor many years ago, and his favorite phrase is he goes, if you're not green and growing, then you're ripe and rotten, and you get stuck in this rigidity of how you do things. And while routine uh is important in terms of starting growth and all that, having flexibility within your routine helps you get pushed through plateaus, help you change and grow and evolve. And so I think that this idea of being flexible, especially in today's environment and learning new skills. And so if we're not constantly learning, reading books, taking seminars, doing things to help improve ourselves, and we are falling behind. It's like listening to this inflation. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, listen, you've worked with leaders in fit at least 50 different countries now, and you must have started to see some patterns in men who really rise to this challenge in leadership. And what, but what are the things that you're also seeing that's holding many of us back?

SPEAKER_01: 9:07

I think one of the biggest things holding us back is that we're leaning into our habits, right? So we're not really willing to flex. We like the idea of flexing, but when it comes down to it, if most people will say, I'll say what they'll say, what's your about your new book about? I'll say it's about flexible, being a flexible leader, and people say that's a really good idea. And yet most people aren't doing it for all the reasons that we've already outlined. And the first part of being more effective as a leader, I would say in this idea of flexible leadership, but regardless of where you want to head with leadership, is that you have to be more intentional. Because if we don't become intentional about considering where we're trying to go, then we'll just be on autopilot. You used the word routine earlier, and routines are important. If we didn't have routines and habits, we couldn't function as humans. We need habits, but what we need is the self-awareness to determine which habits are serving us and which ones aren't. And ultimately, what I'm suggesting is that we need to create a new one, which is to consider the context of the situation before we just before we take action, rather than just taking action. So here's the way I like to think about it today, sometime today or tomorrow, this will happen to you. Someone will come to you with a question, someone on your team, a coworker, a member of your team, a member of your family, someone will come to you wanting some advice or a decision, and you will either say to them or say in your head, it depends. Like what we should do next depends. That's a key. When we say or hear it depends, and then we stop and say, What does it depend on? We're giving ourselves the platform in which to flex. Once we consider what it depends on, we may still go with our natural tendency. There's nothing wrong with our natural tendency when except when it becomes the only thing we do.

SPEAKER_02: 11:10

That makes complete sense to me when taking that opportunity to say it depends, because it truly does. And I know far too many times in my career I've been caught with that. Oh, I have an answer and I give the answer. And I have maybe 25% of the story, or at least in the end, also ultimately what comes out to be. Other perspectives hadn't been taken into consideration. So as a young leader, and even and doesn't young doesn't necessarily mean in age, but in the number of years that you've actually been leading people, it's important for us to understand perspective. And saying it depends doesn't mean that we're weak. It means that we have an opportunity to hear and learn. And you talked about wisdom earlier, and I think that's so important that wisdom is an opportunity for us to learn from experience, ours and others as well, to help make better decisions. And so tech intentional living or intentional reflection, I think you've meant you name it, is really important to that. And that seems to be a big catchphrase lately about being intentional. What do you really mean by by that?

SPEAKER_01: 12:13

It means stopping, right? Yeah, and so two things. First of all, intentional reflection is directly related to what you said earlier about being a continual learner. One of the most powerful ways that we can learn beyond what listening to a podcast, taking a course, reading a book, is to gain from our experience. And we don't learn from experience unless we reflect on it. And so that's critical to this process, is that we have to recognize that. So now, what does intentional what does intentionality mean? What am I saying here? What I'm saying is to recognize number one, that we can understand that being flexible is valuable, right? If your mindset is such to say that I can be consistent in my values and mission and purpose and principles and still be flexible in my approach, if we can realize that I can be both consistent and flexible, if I can realize that sometimes I need to say more and sometimes I need to shut up, if I can say that sometimes I need to lean in toward positive feedback and other times I need to lean in toward more toward corrective feedback, not what I like, not what I'm comfortable with, not what I normally do, but what the situation or context suggests. Once I realize and believe that idea that we live in a both and world, not an either or world. Once I realize that, I am I've set my mind to the place where I can choose to be intentional to move beyond my natural reaction. See, that's it means pausing enough to consider rather than just plowing forward.

SPEAKER_02: 14:04

That makes a lot of sense to me because some of the work that a lot of the work we do is really based in understanding what your purpose or mission is for your life. And while the idea of what that mission is, to have the flexibility to get there allows us that the opportunity to grow, change, and evolve. But if we're unlike a rocket ship that's pointed in one direction, we still need to be wise enough, much like an airplane, it's off course more often than it's on course, but ultimately makes it to its destination. We need to also consider that. And I think that's really what you're getting at the heart here of how we perceive and move forward as leaders. And so now I want to talk about. So that's in the business world. How does this work in our personal lives as husbands and fathers? How does this work for in the world?

SPEAKER_01: 14:51

The first I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. The first thing that I would say is I wrote in a book a long time ago, something along the lines of as we become a better leader, we become a better human, and vice versa. So I can think my children, my son today, as we're having this conversation, turns 33, and my daughter is 26. And I can think of many times in the past when they were younger, when I reacted to something that they did rather than responding, rather than stopping to think about what information don't I have or what assumptions am I making here. Now, sometimes when we react, we have our assumptions are correct, and so sometimes it works out okay. But I'm sure all of you as a husband, as a father, have had conversations that you wish you could take back, or you've made decisions that you say, knowing what I know now, I would have made a different decision then, or we'd have gone a different direction then. And so everything that we're talking about, Alan, is absolutely connected. Whether we're talking about as a leader, I know it's a different hat that we put on as a leader than as a dad, as a husband, as a neighbor, as a son. I realize that. And yet so many of the lessons are completely 100% transferable one to the other. And so if you find that you're better at some of these things as a human than you are as a leader, then you need to reflect on that, and vice versa. Like what again, as we become a better leader, we can become a better human. So, as what are we learning in our leadership journey that we can apply more effectively to our walk as a human and vice versa?

SPEAKER_02: 16:41

Yeah, I think there's so many synergies in both those aspects of our lives. And one of the things that, and I like how you're talking about the human aspect of we are because truly we want to we want to show up as humans in business and in our personal life. And sometimes for our for us, we struggle in having that separation. And we make, while it may be a different hat and a different color, it still requires the same types of skill set to be developed. And so I appreciate you sharing that with us. And I'm thinking of the potential listeners that are listening today, and there might be a man right now who's totally overwhelmed, he's not sure where to get started, his life's a bit in shambles, and they're afraid because they don't want to make the wrong move. Maybe that's some history for them. What would you say to the man that's listening right now that's in that position?

SPEAKER_01: 17:28

So when we're in a moment of uncertainty or overwhelm, there's just a couple of different things that we might do. We might just plow forward, right? I gotta do something, so I'm gonna move. We might go into ostrich mode, we'll try to ignore it, hope it goes away, or we might get immobilized by it. So, like the two ends of the spectrum are we just plow forward or we just don't do anything, we get stuck. And so I think the most important thing that we can do, if we're truly in overwhelm, the most important thing we can do is breathe. Take a breath and then take another one, and then take another one. Because usually once we're in overwhelm, at least in part, we're catastrophizing. And so if we will take a breath, it will start or breathe, it will start to help us re-see a different perspective. And so when we find ourselves in those moments, one of the best things we can do is start to look at the situation from different perspectives. And if we're locked in on one that either that gets us immobilized, as you asked, as you phrased the question, say, okay, so if I look at it from over here, what do I see? If I look at it from over here, what do I see? What would my best friend tell me? What would my father tell me, living or dead? What would my whomever, like someone else that I trust, what would they see? What do the others in this situation see? And how do they see it differently? And how does that illuminate or possibly illuminate my path forward? I'm not saying that you have to immediately move, but I am saying that you can't stay stuck forever either. And I do think that so much about it comes down to perspective. Once we can take that deep breath mentally to say, okay, here's the situation I'm in, and maybe I'm feeling guilt or shame about that, and I understand that. Maybe you're having a hard time forgiving yourself, I understand that too. And yet that's where you are. How do you move beyond it? And so you've got to get out of yourself and start to look at it from other perspectives. And if you can do that, you'll start to see a way forward.

SPEAKER_02: 19:44

Absolutely. I you're talking about perspective, and I'm thinking about I did it, I took an emotional intelligence training class years ago. And part of the course, the prerequisite was to have a 360-degree review done, and it reincluded everything from peers that you would work with, family members, maybe business associates, all these different aspects. And they answered the this questionnaire. And then at the training at the seminar, then you received your little pamphlet. And it was just blew my mind how many, how the variety of perspective that people had of me. I think of you, and I think how many times do we think of ourselves, I'm just Al or I'm just Kevin. But Kevin the dad versus Kevin the coach versus Kevin the podcaster, all we show up a little differently in other compared to other what other people think of us. And I think it's really important for us to have that feedback to help us truly understand, to help us grow and evolve. And so I like that we're talking about perspective because too many times as men we get focused on this mission-driven piece and we forget, like we're great thoroughbreds, but the problem with the thoroughbred is that blinder doesn't allow us to see anything else.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

Here's the thing as humans, as men, but as humans, we are multi-dimensional, we are not flat, we are not a single thing. One of the things that keeps us from taking us back to flexibility for a second, one of the things that keeps us from being able to be flexible is we've talked a lot about habit and autoresponse, but there's another layer here, and that is it's not just what our habit is, but how we've defined ourselves. And if we whatever our identity is or how we've defined ourselves ends up locking us into a box, like we we can easily talk about other people and say we shouldn't stereotype or stereotyping is a bad thing, and yet when we have i we have identified ourselves in a certain way, we have stereotyped ourselves, and that's not serving us, like knowing our tendencies, knowing our strengths is useful until we define ourselves as that, and then it becomes incredibly limiting.

SPEAKER_02: 22:01

Yeah, I you talked about personality tests, and no, you do lots of work with disk and different, there's lots of different personality tests out there, and I think what I find is that exact thing I learned that was my error in judgment first doing these many years ago, and start to find myself as a as an INFT or what or whatever my disk profile. Well, wait a second, hang on, that's an aspect of something. Is there things that I can learn about myself? 100%. And I encourage everybody to do is to do these types of programs because you get an opportunity to get a glimmer of some of the unconscious pieces, but don't define yourself by four letters or a color wheel or yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 22:42

So organizations do something with good intentions, yeah, which is whether they're using disk or Myers Briggs or whatever they're using, and then everyone used to be everyone would put that on their cubicle wall, right? Or they would put it in their email signature. And the intention there is really good that I get a little bit of a sense of how I might be able, we're reinforcing these ideas, and that's helpful. But what it ends up doing is locking people in. Yeah, no, oh yeah, that's that's Al because that's oh yeah, he's a he's an ABC, he's a green or whatever. And we take here's what we do what models do is they take something incredibly complex and simplify them so we can get our arms around them, and that's very useful. But then what we do as humans uh and as organizations sometimes is we take the simplified model and then simplify it again around four letters, a color, an animal, or whatever. And that is problematic because now it's identity, and now it makes it way harder for us to get past that single-dimension view of who we are and how we communicate, how we make decisions, and how we yeah, exactly. As it's you know, some of these are called their insights, it's an insight into that is giving you one of the one of the fans, one of the names of one of those, and they are insightful and they're helpful until they're not.

SPEAKER_02: 24:05

That's right. No, and that's why I really appreciated us talking about your latest book there with this flexibility, because I think we need that even more today. Flexibility has always been important as leadership, but today I is even more profound transition. We I talk a lot about being a servant leader. It's maybe I'm considering changing that to be more of an observational leader to give us the opportunity to be flexible and being even that.

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

So let's just talk about that for a second. Yes, we all want to put, we all want to get it, give ourselves a handle to put around that. And the minute we say I'm a flexible, excuse me, I'm a servant leader, I'm an observation leader, I'm a facilitative leader, I'm a direct leader. Like the minute we do that, we start to box ourselves in. We just have to be really I'm like, I understand the intention, trust me, I understand the intention. I'm I'm fortunate to know some of the people that created some of the models that we're talking about. I've been uh the hair color of my hair tells you that I've been at this a while, and so all of these models, all of these approaches have tremendously good intention. But when we further simplify them, yes, we make them we make them a detriment, the an unintended detriment.

SPEAKER_02: 25:20

Yes, completely agree. Love that Kevin, through all your career, yeah, I'm I'm sure you've mentored thousands and upon thousands of people, and there might have been a couple of people, maybe even books, characters, and individuals that really had an impact in your life. And so, what would you say was the best piece of advice or an a really powerful piece of advice that's still serving you today? It's not about me.

SPEAKER_01: 25:45

Leadership is not about us, it's not about I'll sit, I'll sit in first person. Leadership is not about me, leadership is about reaching valuable outcomes with and through others. Now, we've spent the last 25 minutes talking about how we show up, and how we show up and what we do as a leader does matter, but it's not about us. And so when we can keep that in mind, that we are leading to reach a valuable outcome, and we're and we're engaging others to help us reach that outcome because we can't do it by ourselves. If we could have done it by ourselves, we don't need leadership, we just need to work hard. That is not what leadership is, and so I'll just say that it's not about us. Remember that it's not about us, man.

SPEAKER_02: 26:33

Love that. Just love that for sure. As we get ready to step out and wrap up today's conversation, you've given just dropped a great piece of wisdom for us to really consider as we move on in our daily lives. But what is there an offer opportunity for a tool or mindset shift that you could also offer that helps us really spark that transformation that we're looking for?

SPEAKER_01: 26:54

I think it'll be an extension of what I just said. And that is that beyond all the stuff that we've talked about in this conversation, which I've enjoyed a great deal, I would say that here's the thing that I would challenge you with. If it's not about us, then it is about others, which means that we need to work on becoming more outwardly focused, which allows us to better understand context, which we have talked about today, as well as better understand, empathize with, be observant of those that we lead. And so when we become more outwardly focused or other focused, we can do that when we remember it's not about us. And when we do that, the chances for us, the odds of us leading more effectively goes up.

SPEAKER_02: 27:46

What a brilliant way for us to wrap up the conversation. Just want to say thank you once again, Kevin, for spending time with us today, sharing your one, the wonderful wisdom on leadership, growth, and really having us embrace this idea and the power of flexibility. And so if men are interested in participating in your work or picking up your book, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_01: 28:07

Yeah, you can go to kevineikenberry.com/slash flexible, where you can learn about the book, actually get a sample chapter of the book and that sort of thing. And of course, that will point you to all the places where you probably would already go to buy a book. Uh, flexible leadership, navigate uncertainty, and lead with confidence. If you just want to be connected, and kevineikenberry.com is where you can learn all about our work. But I have something as a free gift for everyone who's been here because something that we haven't really talked about a lot today, but is really important is confidence. Building our confidence in ourselves and in others. That's an important role for us as leaders. It's an important skill for us to build for ourselves. And so I created a masterclass several years ago that we sell every day for$79, but it's completely free because you've been listening here. And so you can get that confidence masterclass by going to kevineichenbray.com slash gift. And if you go there, you'll have the chance to get that and hope that you'll do exactly that.

SPEAKER_02: 29:02

Outstanding. Well, I'm going to make sure that is in today's show notes and episodes if everybody can get a hold of you. Once again, thank you so much for being on the show. And gentlemen, as we wrap up today's episode, I want to leave you with this one challenge. And if you're really holding on too tightly to an outdated version of leadership or you're willing to truly evolve, we have an offer for you as well. And that is the opportunity for you to gain clarity and confidence and adaptability. So try our free integrity challenge. Go to members.theawakenman.net and let's get started on your journey today. That's why you can become the man that you were created to be. You can lead with intention, lead with integrity, and you can get started right away. Thank you once so much, Kevin, for being on the show. I truly appreciate the conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 29:42

It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 29:54

Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. Are you ready to own? your destiny to become more the man you are destined to be join the brotherhood that is the awakened of man at theawakendman.net and start forging a new destiny today